"GW sucker punches fan base for specialist games." Topic

In the last week, GW has cracked down on a number of fan based forum sites that supports there "Specialists Games" line. This includes games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Battle Fleet Gothic, and others. It seems that the searched for fan based forums and sites that had any of their "Key" domain names and sent a "Cease and Desist" letter to each one of them.

I know Talk Blood bowl and a number of other sites have closed. Its kind of hard for a fan based site to stand up to the leagal team of GW. The bastards.

The most irritating part of the whole thing is that these fan sites are what keep the games going and keep their sales flowing for those miniatures. Its like they have no common sense or buisness sense for tthat matter. I can see the board room….

"Sales have been low in the last year with the poor economy, so lets see what we can do to get more buisness…..I know, lets close down all the fan based sites that keep our games in the ethernet and keep the interest of them up. That way we can consolidate the buisness into our own support system. …. but we don't have a support system for these games. ….. So we;ll assign someone next year or later to revice our supprt system. We should get it back up by, 2015 or so."

GW stopped being a "hobby" company years ago so I don't see why this surprises anyone. Seeing as their average fan is about 12 they really don't care about you or your website or the value it may bring to the community as a whole.

What they do care about is keeping the 12 year olds frothing over their goods to such a degree that the 'rents keep handing out the cash.

And that's okay.

Well now Warhammer Historical is back in the fold of GW proper, I can't wait to see some of the cease and desists they will send…

I was amused by the quote about GW cutting the US events to one per year – they wanted to have an "Epic" event.

Overpriced, cut down and less supported every year? Yup, that's an Epic event all right.

It probably means a lawyer gets to bill them for a large sum of money per site they close down. I don't know if they use in house lawyers or not, but if so then those gusy get to use the figures to justify their jobs.

So many companies have developed "fan site" procedures that find it slightly stupifying (and stupid) that GW has not done so.

So when do they shut down TMP for discussing GW products?

i wonder if they have sent one to fisher price for their new space marine toys ???

You'd think they;d be glad people were sufficiently interested in the products--not as if anyone's actually selling anything they shouldn't.

So many companies have developed "fan site" procedures that find it slightly stupifying (and stupid) that GW has not done so.

GW have. Read their legal page. If you don't use GW's trademarks in your web address, they're OK with it.

I agree, some of those sites* have been using those names for a while now, so the fact they're being pursued now is a bit of a bummer.

TalkBloodBowl is vanishing because the site owner can't be bothered to rename the site, not because GW demanded he shut down.

*apart from TalkBloodBowl, who else are we talking about? I've not heard anythign about other sites.

If a product/service uses a registered trademark of another in its name, it dilutes the source significance of that product. In other words, in order for GW to protect its BLOODBOWL trademark, it needs to take steps to limit the use of that term as a trademark by others. It doesn't matter whether the user is offering products/services for sale or not. I assume that's what's happening here.

Now, so long as you're not "infringing" the mark or copyrights in the content, and you are using a fan site on a domain that does not include a registered trademark, you should be able to discuss away.

It has less to do with GW being a bully, but more to do with it protecting its IP rights, as necessary, in order for it to continue its business. You cannot allow others to use your marks without permission. I know I would do the same.

As for perceived unfounded threats, depending on the country and if accurate, GW would be liable for a cost award.

Steve

This isn't different, from what I can tell, from Disney preventing day care companies from using their images on the material they use. If you don't protect the IP you lose it, no company can afford that. I don't see it as them being a bully either. I'd listen to Steve. He knows what he is talking about.

"Well now Warhammer Historical is back in the fold of GW proper, I can't wait to see some of the cease and desists they will send…"

I wonder if they'll send a C&D to rickpriestly.com for his Warmaster content…

:-)

I think it all hinges on use of their games names – which GW alleges would confuse people into thinking it's an official site – and more importantly whether anyone is making money from it. The statement on frothers from the owner of the website raises this but doesn't answer it – maybe he was? I don't know. Hasslefree have had a letter too over some of their minis.
Otherwise I think having a go at fan sites that are non profit and raising the game's profile for GW for nowt is stupid. I expect though that as things get harder we'll see a lot more of this too.
It would be fun to have an Anonymous protest outside a big GW store. I wonder what they'd make of that?
BTW if the Tolkien estate had sent C+D letters to GW in the 80's there wouldn't be a GW!

Caesar I think they already have haha it says server not found!

Because it's rickpriestley.com I suspect.

Aha. So many things on there to Cease and Desist!

"Well now Warhammer Historical is back in the fold of GW proper…"

It has been since 2002.

Fisher Price has Space Marine toys?…cool

Betcha GW picks a lot of these closed sites up….

Cosmic Bank,
I wouldn't be surprised at all. The TalkBloodBowl guy realized that it wasn't worth it to try and buy a new domain name for a site that wasn't making him any money, since he has a domain that he really can't sell.

Alot of these domains are essentially useless now, as either GW can buy them cheap at will, or no-one will touch them.

To the extent that talkbloodbowl.com can be used for a different industry, like dinner china, then it might be worth something. The fact that it might not be able to be used in another industry or in the same industry suggests that it might be infringing.

Steve

"realized that it wasn't worth it to try and buy a new domain name for a site that wasn't making him any money, since he has a domain that he really can't sell."

Why would he want to sell it, if it was serving the purpose for which he set it up – presumably to allow fans to talk about BloodBowl?

If he wanted to buy a new domain name to avoid the GW issue with RTMs in the domain name, then that is not difficult and not expensive.

I run a number of sites that don't make any money, but whether the sites make money does not appear to be the issue

I have just done a domain name search. It seems that

bloodbowlnecromundamordheimbattlefleetgothic dot com is available.

Any takers?

But epicarmageddonbloodbowlnecromundamordheimbattlefleetgothic
dot com is taken?

I'm with GW on this, especially when the sites either encourage or require PayPal donations, have Google Ads/general sponsorship or affiliate links etc. Seems wrong to me that people try and make money out of other peoples IP.

I would think the Paypal donations and Google ads were really just to keep the bandwidth flowing, not to cash in on GW's greatness.

But we SG fans are a lot like battered wives -- we're used to being abused this way, and yet we still come back for more. Sad but true.

I advise my clients to expect to pay $1,500 USD to 2000 for a cease and desist letter. Much of the work required is establishing rights, the extent of the rights, making sure no shoes are really being stepped on, etc. The $20 USD FedEx fee is a drop in the bucket. They can get more expensive if follow-up or action is necessary. It's not free, by any means.

I think this shows that GW has indeed ceased and desisted it's own interest in being a hobby-based business and turned into a straight business.

To put oneself into the arena of imagination-based hobby games that traditionally exist to tap into and inspire the creative flow of the players and then punish people for doing just that is ridiculous.

I understand, fully, the legal logic for what they are doing, but it is simply counterproductive and counterintuitive to their field of business.

As far as poluting their product name, or weakening their IP, I sincerely doubt that you will find them spending time shutting down hobby articles and DYIs that endorse using their paints, terrain materials, etc for non-GW purposes. Something that they should be cracking down on too, if they indeed were concerned with the "sanctity" of their brands.

-Eli

"How would these sites stay up then?"

It's so factual driven. If the mark is used in the domain name, then it's a potential trademark/cybersquatting issue. If it's a design on the webpage, then it's a potential Berne/copyright issue. If it's a legitimate news site and it has a disclaimer, it still might not be sufficient. What percentage of the site is limited to GW products? 1%? 100%?

Jurisdiction is also a major factor. Where is the user, owner and alleged infringement located? Is a domain registrar involved as well?

Hundreds of questions are asked before any money is spent.

Steve

Not a surprise at their attitude and position.

You will note they didn't have the nubs to do this to all the fan sites/forums of their mainstream games.

Doesn't this potentially weaken their position in addition to the other areas where they do not protect their IP as noted in my previous post?

One also has to wonder, at least where it counts, what the free speech implications are for a company trying to impose legal rights over a public discussion forum.

-Eli

Didn't GW nuke their own forums? I remember some discussion on TMP about that? They were turning over discussion to fan based sites.

Is the watering down of copyright really valid? I thought in the famous Skywalker Records case that was the stated reason but was untrue in regards ti the law? That Skywalker Records ended up losing because Lucasfilm showed they could damage the brand. Skywalker Records using "explicit" language and LucasFilm being a family oriented brand.

GW should have drawn up a simple agreement much like the D20 license for forums. Then everyone would say what a great fan friendly company they are turning it in to positive PR.

Let's not get carried away folks.
I think GW is going about this the wrong way, but GW isn't going after every fan forum, only the ones that use GW IP terms in their name or web-address.

Talk about GW and possibly cracking down on everywhere that mentions GW product is poppycock. The issue here is whether you are using GW IP in your website name or address, not whether you discuss GW or it's products.

As long as it is not and IP or copyright issue GW neither would or could crackdown on folks posting articles about their products no matter how they are used.

Its still a bit of a 'sucker punch' because some of these sites have been around a while. The Web is all about links, the persistence of names, and being able to find what you want. Letting these sites operate for two or more years before killing their recognition is a low blow, and does indeed smack of some GW type falling out of the wrong side of bed last week.

Rickpriestley.com isn't affected by GW's policy, which as usual, no-one's bothered to read:

from link :

Web Sites

Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.

This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn – my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.

Rules

We encourage fellow hobbyists to invent rules that work for them. There is no need to stick precisely to the published rules. However, if you are thinking about making your own Codex for your Space Marine chapter (in addition to following the other guidelines in this policy), please avoid making it look official as this may confuse gamers and amount to a challenge to our trademarks. Also, do not copy our official publications or documents.

So, Bolterandchainsword is OK since neither "bolter" nor "chainsword" ae GW trademarks. Same goes for Warseer, Eastern Fringe, etc. Rick Priestley can put up all the extra Warmaster army lists he likes, since he's (presumably) not reprinting GW's own material without permission.

As I said, the only annoying thing is that GW too so long to ask TalkBloodBowl to rename their site (not to shut it down!).

Seems wrong to me that people try and make money out of other peoples IP.

You mean people like GW? Pretty much everything they have is based off other peoples IP.

Michael Moorcock should have sued GW a long time ago.

"Letting these sites operate for two or more years before killing their recognition is a low blow, and does indeed smack of some GW type falling out of the wrong side of bed last week."

Usually, there's a phase out period. What does it cost to transfer a website to another domain? $100? $200? The old domain could divert traffic to the new domain for X months.

Those rules seem completely reasonable… it's not like GW is behaving like nutty old Kevin Sembieda/Palladium Games… threatening anyone who so much as mentions their… including in reviews.

to such a degree that the 'rents keep handing out the cash

and nothing says "twelve year old GW kid" like spelling parents 'rents. it's like calling necrons 'crons.

GW has lost all sense of running their company. Their new stuff is elitist expensive crap and the games are no longer fun for me. WD has even out priced itself not that its worth $5 USD anymore.

IP is BS. Look for a world where people no longer tolerate IP bullying and things are going to change. It will no longer be so easy to cry IP whenever someone says a bad word about your company or cuts a cd for a friend. I look forward to the day.

So GW shut all the blogs down, search out every reference to your product and make your website even harder to use, raise a few more prices while you're at it. Do us all a favor and pop in that last nail.

They are pulling the plug on the sites that are visited by Ex-GW fans. which are also the ones that put cash in the hands of the target 12yr old fan base.Might not hurt them now but a few years time when the lawyer-internet-bloodhounds (LIBs)have moved on?

Michael Moorcock should have sued GW a long time ago

At one time GW/Citadel produced a range based on his books. I still have Tanglebones and a few other of the named characters. The pointy helmeted high elves are based on some of the infantry they produced for this line.

Every once in a while, you get an amusing C&D letter: I know the gent who created Dark Horse Minis (think that's the proper company name), as well as later running a game store called Dark Horse Games.

He got a C&D letter from Dark Horse Comics, which lasted until he returned fire with the incorporation paperwork from his store (dated some 5 years prior to the establishment of DHComics).

I can't fault GW for throwing C&Ds at people who aren't following the published guidelines. I can fault them for not doing so in a timely fashion.

Just because GW sells to twelve-year olds doesn't mean we have to think like twelve-year olds. All GW is saying is don't use our trademark names in your domain names. You can continue with you websites and your discussions just don't use our trademark names in your domain name. Apple did the same thing about 20 years ago. There were a number of fan type publications using Apple's name that had no connection to Apple. They sent out C&D notices for brand protection.

Did any of these sites bother to ask GW for the right to use their TM names? Evidently not. This is a grownup world people. It is important to act like a grownup. If TalkBloodBowl had entitled the site "The Bloody Field:" [apologies to my British friends] an unofficial site for the discussion of Blood Bowl ,they would have had no problems. These sites simply brought it upon themselves for not first asking GW for permission to use their TM names. I for one have no sympathy for them.

Rich

"To the extent that talkbloodbowl.com can be used for a different industry, like dinner china,"

I spit tea out of my nose lol.

I realize that there are potentially legal reasons for doing this, however that doesn't make it 'right' or 'smart'. Seems to me (and I'm not a lawyer) but a good company, interested in supporting its fanbase, both long time, and new, would require a disclaimer on each site or some such that would be enough for any reasonable, rational mind.

We're talking about a company that bands web retailers from showing pictures of their products…creates a new eidtion of both their top selling games every 4-5 years whether they need to or not…not to mention can't get the army books for their entire list of armies out before that time has expired.

We're not exactly talking about consumer freindly, business geniuses here. They have an audience that rides mostly on the concept that they can 'atleast get agame anywhere they go' (I'd note here I've never had an issue not getting other games where ever I go.) and so on and so forth.

The real irony I think is that GW would have a much more loved product, and would be a much more popular gaming company, if they just eased off on the ass-hattery. Instead, they've decided the margin is worth it.

Considering how many years Talk Blood Bowl was around is it too late for GW to do anything? At what point does their existance (TBB) cross the line where GW has waited too long to protect their IP. Also TBB was a well known site so I'm sure GW knew about it long ago.

At one time GW/Citadel produced a range based on his books. I still have Tanglebones and a few other of the named characters. The pointy helmeted high elves are based on some of the infantry they produced for this line.

I am aware of that, what I was referring to was all of the other sources of "inspiration" GW pulled from MM's works both before and after they had the license for a range of models.

Most of what makes up Chaos, High Elves and Dark Elves are pulled right from Moorcock's work.

I can understand them wanting to protect their IP, but what harm do these fan sites really present? This just looks like GW cutting off their nose in spite of their face.

Don't they understand fan sites is free advertisement?

Are we even allowed to say their name without their Ok?

"Most of what makes up Chaos, High Elves and Dark Elves are pulled right from Moorcock's work."

Or Tolkien.

"Are we even allowed to say their name without their Ok?"

lol. GW does strike me as first in line for some sort of 1982, Big Brother candidate sometimes.