"Can a national mini gaming con even exist?" Topic

While we are waiting for our frontline correspondents to give us updates on the latest kerfuffle, can we discuss whether a national scale miniature gaming convention is possible or even desirable?

I know Origins tries to be all things to all people but miniature gaming is too much of an afterthought and the dealers who sell primarily miniature product are priced out of the exhibition. Historicon has always been the default national con but it seems to have reached the limits of what East can do.

I think there might be a niche for a con that meets maybe every other year or so, during the summer at some destination spot. All types of miniature gaming would be welcome.

Las Vegas, Branson and New Orleans come to mind. Someplace where the whole family, gamers and non gamers, would be willing to spend the better part of a week. The goal would be for the con to break even and maybe a little profit for seed money for the future.

Unfortunately the biggest hindrance would be the lack of national organization to sponsor it.

This is probably mostly wishful daydreaming. I know the idea has surfaced in the past repeatedly and still here we are. Can such an event exist or are we destined to stay with regional cons with a couple that put a timid toe into being a national presence?

Branson? "Wild horses…" and "When Satan goes skating…" spring to mind.

We're not Branson people. Are we? <shudder>

Allen

Sounds like a good idea.

Kalifornia would be a good choice.

No doubt, given the economy, there will be lots of specials on everything.

With 20% plus unemployment in the state, you could even run 1:1 scale games, with blanks of course for the weapons, since you can afford to hire an entire army on the cheap, for a day, weekend, or week. So, you finally can be that general you've always wanted to be.

Southern Kal would be the obvious choice, due to the warmer weather, and proximity to Disneyland and other theme parks for the kids. There's a large desert to the East, for maneuvers/battles, if needed, and an ocean to the West for naval battles.

Perfect for representing North Africa, the Wild West, etc., for your scenarios.

Of course, Brookhurst Hobbies is located nearby too, for the miniatures gamers who may need to be resupplied, or just want to browse.

"There's a large desert to the East…"

NIMBY! Unless you mean Vegas, of course.

Allen

What is the difference between Branson people and Lancaster people? The sauce you put on the pig?

I could see San Diego being a destination place, less so the LA area. Maybe in late spring or summer as the summer beach crowds thin. NorCal probably would not be bad but I doubt they would be cheap at anytime, even in whatever you want to call currrent economy.

I've often wondered also about the concept of the Big Cons ALWAYS being "east"…I'm thinking that if we were looking for something that gave everyone a decent chance of getting there, why not somewhere "middle"…
I would say that would be St. Louis, or Perhaps, Kansas City…My vote would be for St. Louis though…

Have you *been* to Manhattan, Kansas?

Ask somebody who's been stationed at Fort Riley. I never had to suffer more than a week at a time there, when TDY.

Kansas City at least has barbecue.

Memphis would not be bad. Manhattan, I dunt think so.

Well, Wichita, Kansas it pretty close to the geographical center of the US.

Memphis barbecue is good, too.

Everybody just commit to come to Nashcon. (It's actually in Franklin, TN.)
There are museums in the area (The Hermitage—Andy Jackson's home, Belle Meade Mansion, Carnton Plantation in Franklin itself, Ripavilla Plantation, Fort Nashboro, Adventure Science Center for the kids, and more), lots of great shopping (Downtown Franklin for eclectic stuff and antiques, Cool Springs Galleria for standard stuff, Green Hills Mall for upscale boutiques, Opry Mills for Bass Pro Shop, etc.), music and arts venues. Plus we're just covered with battle sites.

Waco, not sure about your actual questions, but did you go to Origins this year or last?

We had over 700 minis events. We had a lot of new guys show up to run historicals, and to the best of my knowledge all plan to come next year plus more.

We had more minis venders this year, and hopefully more will attend next year.

I know this comes out of the alledged debacle going on out east, but don't knock Origins. We are growing the minis events…

SInce someone else put out Wichita, I will second it. They are building a casino just down the road. Since most of us are in our middle years or older, why not combine gaming and gaming, (miniatures and gambling). Come to game and let your spouse spend time at the slots.

I know Origins tries to be all things to all people but miniature gaming is too much of an afterthought and the dealers who sell primarily miniature product are priced out of the exhibition.

Have you been to ORIGINS? (at least in the last few years) The gaming is very,very good and getting larger and better every year. You should attend. The dealers are weak- historically- but I believe will grow and they are working hard to get deals for historical mini dealers. It was difficult to get dealers in the summer also because of the close time frame to Historicon. Maybe that will change? With the news coming out of "Fall in".

I wish the dealers would band together and run a "moving convention" changing to a different city each year. Be sure there is an airport, and have the Historical and Fantasy gamers rally round them and put on games.

Some games could be sponsored, to display new product or reinvigorate older offerings.

If 70% of the people at a con are there for the shopping, this seems like a way to move things forward.

The last ORIGINS I attended was a while back. I think it was the first one where ya'll were making a concerted efforts to push historical gaming. While I played some fun games, the dealer's area was pretty much a waste for me. Maybe if they can get better retailer presence and not just manufacturers it would definitely have promise.

And while CCGs RPGs and LARPs don't bother me there are some of more delicate constitution who might not approve .

I'd vote for Kansas City, but I don't think there is a venue here that can handle it.

Branson has its attractions, but I think is even less likely to be able to handle something large.

[I wish the dealers would band together and run a "moving convention" changing to a different city each year. Be sure there is an airport, and have the Historical and Fantasy gamers rally round them and put on games.]

I go to a couple of academic conferences that are like that. They migrate around the country.

The thing is, though, you'd need a pretty hefty team of local people to handle all the site-related chores… And of course you'd never know how to gauge the attendance because it would be changing so much from region to region, with different population densities. (When I lived in Charleston, SC, there wasn't a game club within 100 miles… now I live near NYC, and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.)

Isn't Branson where Glen Campbell and Yakov Smirnoff are considered "racy"?

Who is going to be the group that puts on a "National Mini Gaming Con"?
Up until now, when they imploded, HMGS East directly put on three conventons, and indierctly encourged local groups to put on their own.
Historicon happened to be the largest historical miniatures convention, but that was not its purpose. The original purpose was to put on a con. HMGS EAST (Note the emphasis never intended to put on the "largest" convention, merely "a" convention. It merely got a lot of attendees, based purely on its location in a denesely populated area. There is no future obligation to put on larger, and there is no need to move it.
All anyone in the Branson area, or Vegas need do is put on their own convention and compete.
I see absolutely NO need for HMGS EAST to do so. Why should they? Let them sponsor Historicon in their, and my, backyard.

Well, answer my question. WHO is going to run it?
WHO will have the free time and economic freedom to fly around the country looking at alternate sites?
The reason Histricon is in their backyard is that it is in their backyard. Nothing mysterious about that.
Let the large gaming community in Vegas organize a miniatures gaming conventon, and see who comes.
Seriously. If they existed, they would have done so by now.

John, how is it that the GAMA show manages to take place in Vegas each year, while the GAMA HQ and staff are in Columbus? Over 22,000 conventions occurred in Vegas in 2008; how many do you think were organized by locals?

A number of different game conventions have taken place in Vegas over the years. Ask Ed at THW about his experience in the past. The current annual con--which runs right after the GAMA show--is one of the Conquest/Avalon group of conventions:

avalongamecon.com

These aren't huge shows, but neither was Historicon I, as I recall. From small acorns…

Allen

I don't know, Allen. Right now the HMGS-East BOD has shown no interest in putting on a con out of their backyard. Why should they? It is still an EAST con. East Vegas? Est LA? East Timor?
I never said it was impossible. It just takes thinking outside the box. Or backyard.
Right now, I think such a bold move on the part of the BOD is not prudent.

So, whoever wants to do it, the field is clear. Good luck.

>>> Right now the HMGS-East BOD has shown no interest in putting on a con out of their backyard.

Who says they should? Did you read the original post, or is this the typical TMPism: to answer a different question than was asked?

Allen

Shall we discuss the connection between the HMGS BoD and the Gaming & Casino Industry now?

Allen

In the old days, as a national convention, Origins did move around the country. Baltimore and LA are two of the cities I remember it being held in.

Was told back in the day that Columbus, OH was chosen as the "permanent" site for ORIGINS because it (Columbus) is a 12 hour or less drive for more than 50% of the US population.

I'm stationed at Fort Riley currently. PLEASE hold a con in Manhattan, I could finally get a game in….

To have a true "national" convention would take a coordinated, well run, strong, central organization/leadership. It also would help to have a network of regional/local clubs. As one can see from the replies here everyone has an opinion where the con should be held.

I offer up as an example a system that has worked very well for another hobby organization, the International Plastic Modelers Society (IPMS). The IPMS runs a national convention each year. It rotates among the 3 regions, east, central and west. Member clubs put together a presentation for the national committee for hosting the convention in their area and the committee decides on future venues. In the past(to name just a few locations), in the east, conventions were held in Virginia Beach and Atlanta. In the central area the last one was held in Columbus. The next to get the convention is the west and Phoenix is the winner there (3 years ago believe it was the LA area?).

They system has worked well for this group, which is fairly large and draws participants internationally as well as nationally. A similiar model would be the best for a true national convention but I am reminded that getting wargamers organized is like herding cats and what works for the model folks may not have a chance with the gamers. After all at one point HMGS did have a central national board and we know how that turned out.

HMGS East is currently the largest member organization. (that is even with those detractors not renewing). It appears over 50% of the wargamers in the US live in the eastern third of the US. With the weight of the lead to run and play in games and tournaments flying around the US is not practable for most gamers. That is why the East continues to have the largest conventions. Origins and gencon work because for RPG and card games it is easier to carry these items.

Let's not forget about where the *dealers* live! Probably 90% of them are east-siders.

To answer that question, one would have to answer this one first; Who would really go to a National Con?

I've never felt the need to go out east for one of those cons and I would not feel the need to travel any great distance to go to a 'National' con.

There are enough great cons within a 5-hour drive in the Midwest to keep me entertained. I bet most of the people who attended the east cons feel that as well about their situation.

So what would motivate someone to go a National Con? Well, I can only speak for myself.

1>Great Games: Talking with gamers and vendors that have been to multiple cons out east and elsewhere, the games at cons here in the Midwest are as good as anywhere.

2>Large size: Well, that could bring in more vendors. But with my local store and the Internet, I have access to any vendor of significance. I understand the advantage of seeing a product in hand, but savings in travel will pay for a lot of ordering mistakes.

>>> Right now the HMGS-East BOD has shown no interest in putting on a con out of their backyard.

Who says they should? Did you read the original post, or is this the typical TMPism: to answer a different question than was asked?

Allen

I chose to answer the question that I thought should be asked!

I have seen the strapped army carrying cases, and I accept that the average tournament gamer can carry his army, even a 28mm army, to whatever venue is chosen. It can even be carry on luggage, if he is willing to be shaken down behind closed doors.

Role players should be able to carry their miniatures in a pocket.

However, what about the guy, or club, that puts on a massive game at a con? I can only think of our club's local heroes, Darrell, Roger and JonPaul with their massive Mogadishu for Black Ork Down, Bunker Hill or DOOM! games. No way they can fly those games to Vegas or Branson.
Even I, with the smaller games that I occasionally put on, fill the back of my Subaru.

THAT is why I will only play in my back yard, and why a National Convention is something I will simply not attend.

That is why I would not attend BCC Historicon. It had nothinjg to do with a boycott against an Evil SHMERSH-infiltrated BOD. Nope, it was logistics and expense.

So you don't *choose* to. Fine. Are you aware that other people *do* travel long distances to conventions, and sometimes even ship fairly substantial game layouts over those long distances? No, I suppose not. The whole point is that a "national convention" would not likely be in many folks' back yards. But for those with a less parochial view than John, that's OK.

It wasn't that long ago that we had East cheerleaders touting the "largest wargaming convention in the free world" stuff, or *expecting* that West Coasters and other furriners would magically be drawn to the BCC, thus justifying the expansion of Historicon.

Allen

Yes, I am aware of what other people do, even in my parochial cloistered backyard, wedged in the groin of the Greater Wilkes Barre/Scranton megalopolis.

I suspect that "other people" does not add up to "a lot of people". I suspect that many/most gamers are like me, and cannot afford the expense or the bother of shipping their games 2000 miles.
If I am wrong, I applaud those brave souls, but I suspect I am not.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is that you need more than players and dealers to have a con. You also need people to put on games, and those are the souls I am talking about.

Well, it wasn't that long ago that it seemed like the desired attendees for certain cons would be those who could fly in by private jet, and would be inclined to sip Cristal while watching the sunset over the waterfront rather than playing games, so maybe you and I aren't the target audience anyway.

Allen

But maybe that was all part of the concept for attracting high rollers in the Gaming & Casino Industry.

Allen

Sure one can exist, so long as it has really cheap hotels, terrible food, and can be reached by no more than a 5.5 hour drive. Oh yes, and is not in a major city, since we all know what goes on in those places.

One or many can be put on. The idea that only one in the best location can be done is short sighted. Other industries have more than one national show for their clientel.

The location will always place the focus of that event will be for the local crowd (2 hours drive away or less).

Many people regard a national event as one to attract all of the key manufacturers in the industry and other key players to attend them. If that is the case, more has to be done to attract the manufacturers and vendors. Lower table fees not higher ones would be a start. The costs of a vendor to attend shows is not one the general public truely understands. Their concern in many cases is to be able to see products whether they want to buy them or not .

And they want some sort of discount so they can get their desired product as cheaply as possible. This makes it risky for manufacturers to attend shows. There profit is lower with sales and they lose productivity by not being at thier company for a week or more. This only make mail order customers mad that their orders or delayed.

Why not a national mini convention linked via satellite from many places around the country? Heck, why not have an internet link up, so gamers wouldn't even have to leave their basements--that way they can order in from local favorite Dominoes Pizza and drink their Mountain Dew ad infinitum.

"Other industries have more than one national show for their clientel."

It may be unfair to compare a hobby to an industry (despite those who include our hobby in the Gaming and Casino Industry), but I can think of one--lingerie--that has an "international" show in Vegas each year, plus one in New York, one in the UK, one in Germany, one in China…

But those are run by professional specialist trade show companies, so the comparison is not exact.

I'll have a Barq's please, but I loathe Domino's.

Allen

Does Domino's even put sauce on their pizza?

An advantage of a moving national con is that the host organization changes and one group is not continually expected to put on the showcase games con after con. That was actually behind my original idea that the con not happen yearly but on an every other year basis.

I think one mindset that is difficult to break is that of the con being a weekend or extended weekend affair. This fits in to the idea that the con is something you do without affecting your schedule unduly. You can see this in some of the posts on Fall In falling on Halloween at some point. I would rather see a national event start on a Monday and run through Friday. Take a week of vacation, and have a couple of travel days at either end.

I realize that there comes an age in a man's life where the words "road trip" no longer have a primal response, but I am not there yet, although I am getting closer.

And for someone more familiar with the workings of ORIGINS, what is the feeling toward major retailers occupying the same vendors hall as the manufacturers they carry? I could see a lot more political issues in that arena coming up with exclusive arrangements and such.

Oh and finally, Pizza Hut meat lovers thin and crispy with Shiner Bock please.

Blech. Pizza Nova please. They're edible, which is a lot more than can be said for Pizza Hut or Domino.

>This fits in to the idea that the con is something you do without affecting your schedule unduly… I would rather see a national event start on a Monday and run through Friday. Take a week of vacation,
>

That stretches the boundaries of the HMGS charter. The purpose of the organization is to educate people and make more people interested in the subject matter. New people will not take a vacation day (plus travel) to expose themselves to the subject matter. So the con must straddle the weekend.

It would be best to have it end on Monday instead of Sunday, so that day-trippers have two weekend days to choose from. The hardcore can travel on Monday as easily as Wednesday.

Well there is the hobby related IPMS show that rotates each year to a different part of the country.

When Origins, considered a national show in the hobby, started it also rotated locations.

many also consider Gencon and even a few DragonCon as national conventions in the gaming-SciFi-fantasy genre.

Are there more than one 'national comic book oriented show?
What about model train shows?

The 2010 National Model Railroad Association convention will be July 11-18 in Milwaukee. Sunday through Sunday. And for the next four years will rotate from WI to CA to MI to GA.

But they have the advantage of a strong national organization.

I am afraid without something similar for gaming we will have to settle for the status quo.

I don't believe that NMRA conventions can even exist. For them to do so, people would have to be willing to transport large modular layouts at least halfway across the country.

Who's going to stuff an N-Trak modeule or two in the back of his Subaru and drive…

Oh, yeah: they really do that, don't they?

Allen