"A myth of Waterloo." Topic

My last message failed. Sorry.

I want to said that for most of the common people (not historians) which had read books of that famous battle and saw some films, the idea was always that the Duque of Wellington and his Army was fighting alone against Nap Army a wole day (at least, most of it)praying and watching the clock because nobody knows were or when the Prussians arrived.

Well, it seems that it was not true!.
Wellington know that Bullow Corp was at St. Lambert at 9Am to 10Am and "dicky" Müeffling arrived at St. Lambert between 10Am to 11Am with some staff officers of the Duque H.Q.

This was the time when the battle began!.

So, the British Command always knows that the Prussians were on their left and advancing to the battlecamp.

So, Wellington always knows that he was not alone with his Army waiting for the Prussians!. They were there from the begining!.

So, he play with all the cards?.

Never a single nervous scene on the British side because they know they were fighting with their Allied at hand.

A myth which fall.

Amicalement
Armand

There is a thread, a very long one, that treates these same subject. If you use the search function probably will find it. You can find there all kind of "polite" discussion about Old Nosey and the Prussians.

I tried to read it in full. But then I realized that's the way to madness and gave up!

Sorry for that Mr. basileus66.

I only want to know the opinion of the forum members.

So, "history forum" is not so easy to write.

Amicalement
Armand

So, Wellington always knows that he was not alone with his Army waiting for the Prussians!. They were there from the begining!.

But the Prussian army was not actually on the field of battle that early, I don't think a few staff officers count!

A lot could have happened at Waterloo before the main body of troops Prussian arrive

Or do you mean that most folks don't know about the other Allies that were side by side with the British?

That's what I am saying… There you can find a lot (20 pages, last time I checked) of opinions on the topic!

I am feeling lazy. Otherwise I would look for the link.

A.

Mi amigo Basileus66 de la querida España, I'm new in the forum, I had not the list of themes presented in the near past.

Please allow me to ask as another usual guy in the forum.

If you put on bad humor for my question, please vete a tomar una cerveza y no jodas.

Con todo cariño
Armand

The battle started at 11:30 AM, the first serious Prussian attack on Plancenoit was around 4:30 PM. That leaves Wellington alone with the French for perhaps 5 hours, though Napoleon knew he had company coming from about 1 PM.

I have heard of people who seem to think the Prussians only showed up after the battle was decided. That doesn't explain what Napoleon was busy doing when La Haye Sainte fell or why the Prussians lost 7,500 troops.

Armand

Como veo que controlas el español, te responderé en español.

Si tú piensas que informarte de la existencia de un tema es una expresión de malhumor es que tienes un problema muy gordo. Como dicen en mi tierra, quien se pica ajos come.

Saludos muy cordiales
A.

"praying and watching the clock because nobody knows were or when the Prussians arrived."

But this is exactly what happened. He hoped/knew the Prussians were on the way, but didn't know when or where they would turn up. Obviously it would be on his left because Wavre was on his left…

The myth stands!

If you play a wargame of Waterloo and the Prussian arrival time is pre-set, it doesn't add much tension to the game. I usually randomise it, although once we managed to do Waterloo-Wavre as a paired battle, which was really interesting as the Prussians tried to hold off Grouchy while marching post haste cross country (and what awful country it is to march over). Napoleon had the game in the bag as the Allies were pretty well routed, but then stupidly extended his line to engage the Prussians as well, who promptly rolled his army up from the flank.

Armand 05 Nov 2009 3:01 p.m. PST
''Wellington know that Bullow Corp was at St. Lambert at 9Am to 10Am and "dicky" Müeffling arrived at St. Lambert between 10Am to 11Am with some staff officers of the Duque H.Q.

The Prussians came piecemeal: they were strung out on two roads, getting in each others way. At the times you state, they only had their advance guards attacking the villages on the periphery. You shouldn't worry yourself about what the films say.

Martin Rapier
''Napoleon had the game in the bag as the Allies were pretty well routed''

What!!!! Not one British or Allied division routed all day. You've been on the beer? :-)

What!!!! Not one British or Allied division routed all day. You've been on the beer? :-)

Try reading wot he wrote rather than wot you think he wrote :-)

Anyway, Old Big Nose remarked that it was a close run thing. And he was in a better position to know than a bunch of armchair generals and amateur historians chewing it over nearly two centuries after the fact.

"What!!!! Not one British or Allied division routed all day. You've been on the beer? :-)"

I was describing one of our Waterloo refights, it was really one of the most memorable. The only unit left in good order on the Allied side was Wellington and his staff (OK, I exaggerate a little) and then Napoleon utterly fluffed it. Never has the phrase 'snatch defeat from the jaws of victory' been so apt. Wellington even got to join in the glorious charge all over the routing Frenchies.

Never show your rear to the Prussians!

One might as well describe a ball as describe a battle…

I'm no expert, but as far as I am aware, Wellington fought his defensive battle at Waterloo quite deliberately, precisely because he was playing for time. He knew the Prussians were on the march and was trying to simply hold Napoleon and drag the battle out long enough for them to arrive. Wellington always suspected (knew outright?) that he would need the Prussians to win.

It was indeed a "near run thing" because Wellington's troops heroicly took a hell of a pounding (there wasn't much left of many Battalions) and probably wouldn't have taken much more. But for the Prussians, Waterloo could well have been a French victory. But the Prussians came in time and really did "save the day." The presence of the Prussians alone, even before they engaged, transformed the battle considerably; unerving the French, comitting units to the Prussian front that would have made the difference against Wellington, and making Napoleon try and rush the decision – with terrible results.

I'm surprised this comes as news to some.

The movies are myths themselves. Never trust the movies.

Estimado Basileus:

Mis disculpas si te he ofendido con mi expresión, pero por un instante olvidé que "joder" no significa los mismo en España que en Argentina. Aquí la joda es una broma, no una expresión de mal humor.

Además, debí decir "cañita" en lugar de cerveza.

Por otra parte, me interesa la opinión de otra gente sobre temas comunes que muy probablemente se hayan repetido aqui, pero yo no los he leido ni compartido, así que te ruego me permitas preguntar sobre temas de mi interés.

Un afectuoso saludo a la Madre Patria.

Amicalement
Armand

Very nicely summed up Scutatus.

The thread apoint that Wellington at 11Am (?) and Napoleon at 1PM (?) knows that the Prussians were there.

So both battle each other with that on their minds.

I think that not Wellington nor Napoleon said that to their troops (?). I understand why Nap lie about that, but why not the Duque send some ADC to inform and incourage his troops?.

Both had playing with all their cards on the table, but the difference imho was that Wellington can be quite well with his left flank from the beginning and Nap had to send his reserves to that place.

About the "myth" for "common" people of course nobody doubt it was one of the most harder and heroic battle that the British and his Allied fought, but people think that the Prussians appeared to the end of the battle (at night for example) when the British had won the battle alone. And the reality show us that the Battle was fought for the three Armies involved great part of that day.

About wargaming, I had played Waterloo some times and I used two variants. a) Nap fought untill 4PM and then began to set back in order. b) Grouchy arrived at 6PM on his right flank.

Amicalement
Armand

Connard Sage, Martin Rapier,

Ah – he wuz talking about a wargame, was he? You mean I have to read these posts in detail? :-) Well done MR! (….slinks away from the stage in embarassment…..)

Armand

Vamos a ver si nos aclaramos.

Tú hiciste una pregunta sobre un tema que ha sido tratado de forma exhaustiva. Y yo me limité a decirte que ese hilo ya existía y que podías buscarlo en el foro… NO que no pudieras abrir tú uno. Es más, en otro tema que te reprocharon que hubieras abierto creo que fui uno de los que defendió tu derecho a abrir los temas que quisieras.

Corolario: a mi me da igual que abras o no un tema que se ha repetido cien o doscientas veces. Consideré que era una cortesía por mi parte informarte de su existencia.

Te garantizo que será la última vez que vuelva a cometer ese error.

Un cordial saludo
A.

Basileus, te ruego, imploro que no te enojes!.

Evidentemente fue un error de mi parte porque mi inglés no es tan bueno!. Yo entendí que tú me decías que aqui no se pueden hacer preguntas que ya se hicieron antes!. Eso me llevaba a no preguntar nunca nada, porque qué pregunta histórica no se ha hecho ya?. No quisiera que sigas molesto por una mala interpretación de mi parte. Un error lo tiene cualquier y mucho mas en un idioma que no es el propio.
Yo también ponderé tu defensa en el caso pasado y la agredecí, así que mucho me angustiaría que sigas enojado por esta lamentable mal interpretación en inglés.

No sé ya de que manera pedirte disculpas.

Ruego una vez mas reflexiones.

Un atento saludo
Armand

Dear Armand
Certainly an interesting question. Wellington fought the battle as he knew that the Prussians would arrive. They were delayed by the fire in Wavre and the attrocious terraine.

IV Corps was chosen because it was the only unengaged part of the Prussian Army that had been chewed up at Ligny.

The Prussians were close enough at hand to be a significant influence upon the battle as it pulled the reserves of the French Army to fend them off. The French after the failure of the initial assault lacked the infantry to do the job as it was involved with the Prussians. Only the Guard remained unused.

Waterloo was a race against time. Napoleon should have used his sense of a general not to fight the battle. The political constraints got in the way. He could not retreat otherwise his army may have lost confidence in him and the news to Paris would have been disasterous.

The Prussian Army in the Waterloo campaign is covered in my book on the Prussian Infantry 1808-40 Volume II published by Partizan Press.

Grouchy fought competently with the information at hand and lead his part of the army back into France. It is interesting reading history where you look at the facts rather than the emotions. That must be scientist speaking again.

Stephen

Dr. Summerfield, thanks a lot for your comments.

I love your books about Nap history. It was not easy to buy them from the far South, but I can mannaged to get them.

Did you think that if Grouchy didn't miss the way and managed to send a vanguard which would arrived at 5PM to the battlefield, Nap would won?.

thanks in advance for your answer.
Amicalement
Armand

Ok, Armand.

Aclarada la confusión. No hay mala sangre por mi parte.

Cordialmente
A.

I'm not sure anybody can say with certainty that Wellington 'knew' that the Prussians would arrive. He had been reliably informed they were coming and presumably the odds were good enough that he made the decision to fight based on this information, but short of having a real-time satellite feed he cannot have been certain.

Just got back from dinner.

I agree with Old Bear in that the retreats of the two allied armies in diagonally opposite directions upon their respective supply lines, after Quatre Bras and Ligny, must have given both Blucher (or, at least, Gneisenau) and Wellington pause for thought.

Gneisenau was simply following the primary directive to ensure that the Prussians weren't cut off, and Wellington had to do the same to ensure that the British could re-embark at Ostend.

To my mind, it was Blucher's seemingly pathological hatred of Napoleon that gave Wellington the confidence to make a stand at Mont St Jean, in the hope that Blucher could overcome the objections of his staff.

Of course, Wellington must have had the usual contingent of Prussian intermediaries on his staff urging him on, as would have been the case in the Prussian high command with the attaches from the Anglo/Dutch/Belgians.

However, I would love to have been around just after the meeting between Wellington and Blucher at Tirlemont to see what their impressions of each other really was.

Or not.

Armand 06 Nov 2009 3:49 p.m. PST
''Did you think that if Grouchy didn't miss the way''

When did he ''miss the way?''

He followed Bony's orders (''you will be the sword against the Prussian's back'') exactly. In fact, Grouchy was chomping at the bit to get after the Prussians after they'd beaten them at Ligney and it was Bonaparte who stalled.

To Mr. BAsileus, muchas gracias!.

to Mr. Caçadores: Soult send order to Grouchy at 11AM (?)and my question appoint if there were not another trace to be at Waterloo where the Empereur inform him that there were a big battle. He went to Wavre, but can he went to La Belle Aliance or at least to the right flank of the Prussian Army?.

He can heared the cannon shots.

Amicalement
Armand

Armand 07 Nov 2009 4:03 p.m. PST

''Soult send order to Grouchy at 11AM (?)and my question appoint if there were not another trace to be at Waterloo where the Empereur inform him that there were a big battle. He went to Wavre, but can he went to La Belle Aliance or at least to the right flank of the Prussian Army?.''

Grouchy followed Bonaparte's orders exactly:
''you will be the sword against the Prussian's back'' so naturally he followed the Prussians closely.

In the early afternoon, Gouchy got another message from Bony:
''direct your movements towards Wavre….pushing before you the units of the Prussian army which have taken that direction…where you must arrive as soon as possible''

Now, even if Grouchy had started out at 6am, the only way he could ever have been in time to get Bulow in the rear, is if he had disobayed Bonaparte's orders to continue marching to Wavre in the early afternoon and instead had altered his course many hours earlier at Sart-a-Waldheim and cross the Dyle at Moustey and Ottignies. And in direct contradiction to Bony's orders! Grouchy did catch up with the Prussians as ordered and poked them (Thielemann's Corps) in the back, as ordered.

Or course, Bonaparte knew exactly what orders he'd sent Grouchy and a brief look at a map would have shown him his own mistake. All that happened, is that Bonaparte wrote his memoirs in an attempt to save the myth he had created for himself. Bonaparte even critisied Wellington for deplying ''in front of a wood''. Everyone made mistakes…..except the short man himself of course.

One does at times feel that Napoleon was somewhat the Alex Ferguson of his day. Damned good at what he did but never his fault when the wheel fell off.

With Ney as Roy Keane?

Many thanks Mr. Caçadores.

You are right in your apreciations.

Amicalement
Armand

I guess that makes Ryan Giggs (Davout) and David Beckham (Bernadotte). Liverpool must consider Micheal Owen as Marmont.

cheers
Edward

Paul Scholes could play the part of Lannes.

Gary Neville as Berthier perhaps?

Ronaldo as Murat.
Brilliant at the front when leading a charge, but as bent as a 5 bob note, deserts when the going gets tough and runs off to some second rate country where they have an unatural liking for pasta.

Since a large portion of Wellington's Army consisted of Nassau, Brusnwick, and Hanover I would say the German states won the battle.

Surely the Irish won it (Wellington was born there as well as a lot of his "British" troops).

Definitely not the English though. Like Hollywood, even wargamers try to write them out of history!

Verne Troyer as Napoleon.