"Assault in FoW" Topic

I have not seen this discussed before & I could be playing the rules wrong so if I am enlighten me, but my main sticking point in FoW is the assault

When assaulting I find it odd that strung out platoons can get pulled in from a long distance away. to join in on the defense.

I find this even more unrealistic when assaulting Russians. squads from 24" (who knows what 24" represents in FoW but it is most certainly out of effective earshot on a WWII battlefield) away are suddenly aware that their mates are being attacked and are able to rush out into the open to help them throw back the attack.

Has this been hashed out somewhere?

I don't play FoW enough but I would assume there could be an easy fix for this. maybe a maximum zone of assault or subdividing platoons. . .

Gather about me men who are sleek and fat.
Yon Quadratus has a lean and hungry look.
He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous.

It's that "elastic scale" thing. The scale is what it is at the moment you are doing something. Since the thing is supposed to be 1:1 scale, you suspend your disbelief. Humongous Russian units assaulting "look right", and I ignore anomalies.

I for one do not approve of "quick fix" house rules, particularly in games with tournaments. There, I said it! It would notwork in my group, because 3 or 4 of our regulars play tournaments. You monkey with essentials like this for a House Rule scenario, you throw off the players. It would not bother me, since I don't play touraments anymore. So, out of courtesy, I don't encourage House rules.
I have my own "fixes" for air power. I think there should be a "friendly fire" option, like there is for artillery. But, I do not press it.

I also do not think that gamers who "don't play (FILL IN THE BLANK) enough" often think through the whole game context enough.

If you are expecting a game that is 100% consistent throughout, give up. You will NEVER find such a game.

I don't think you are doing something correct. The Flames of War forums is probably the best option for you to get clarification. I'd be happy to discuss it here as well, but you need to give a much more detailed example.

Ed G.

OK.

My six bases of German infantry are assaulting a building with 6 bases of Russian infantry. The Russian infantry company (which works as a platoon) is set up conga-lined all the way across the board and into different buildings, some as far as 20" away. When the assault happens the Russians make morale and every squad in the company, no matter how far away, make a beeline over open terrain (even if they were pinned down before) to the combat point.

It just seems unnatural that models so far away would be aware of the combat and furthermore able to just sprint over terrain in full view of the enemy to get stuck in. It also makes assaulting Russians in a building overly difficult.

I understand the problem with house rules, but the assault phase in FoW seems to be a really weak link in my opinion. Really good games end up being soured (for me) by this flaw.

There's a comprehensive dissection of assaults over on the FoW forums. For one thing, though, on page 108 of the main rule book, under "Launching Counterattack", it states that "… Teams that are more than 16"/40cm from the platoon being assaulted cannot Charge Into Contact". The fluff above states that "…Now the rest of your platoon must charge into the fray, provided of course that they are close enogh to know what's happening."

Also, they must have one team within 4 inches of your assaulting teams to counterattack. If you kill off 1 or 2 teams in that conga line either before the assault, or during it, they may not be able to pull the rest in (see page 108). If you hit them with a powerful enough assault, the rest of the unit (company) may be cut off.

Together with the command distance rules (you can't move away from command in v2, but you can leave teams behind as you move), they shouldn't be pulling in anything more than 16 inches away, best case. Try to hit them in a flank, if possible.

If your opponent is doing the conga line thing, you can cure him of the habit by breaking his chain of command and cause him all sorts of grief before assaulting. Create that 4 inch gap in his line and his strategy starts to break down. You'll also play merry hell with any of his movement for that unit. Russians only have 2 (MW) or 4 (LW) inches of command distance for infantry, so a thinly spread line is vulnerable. With some luck, you'll decapitate those large infantry units and leave them leaderless.

Why I'm sharing this since I play Soviets I don't know. :)

- Bob

Bob,

some excellent points. Cutting the conga line is a good idea but doesn't the enemy get to choose where they pull their casualties from?

And as for rule 108 aren't all the teams in the Russian company within 16" of the platoon being assaulted because you replace the word platoon with company when talking about Russian units. If not this would make a hell of a lot more sense.

For some reason I read the title as saying "Assault ON FOW'…not that it wouldn't be out of place on TMP.:)

Quadratus wrote:

some excellent points. Cutting the conga line is a good idea but doesn't the enemy get to choose where they pull their casualties from?

For squad-v-squad shooting, that's true. But there are a few things you can do:

1. Drop a template on 'em. Air or artillery will work.

2. Valid targets are determined by LoS, Range and field of fire from the shooting unit (page 66). When there are multiple targets, those within 16 inches are priorities for allocation. Only shoot with those guns that can hit along the thin line, or position so the shots are focused where you want. We normally don't focus on it, but the rules on Shooting at a Building (page 62) state that teams with LoS to an opening can see every team in the building. Conversely, those without LoS to an opening don't, so you can use this to direct shots somewhat.

3. Depending on what's been positioned where, you can opt to target gun teams or infantry, possibly breaking the conga line.

This is getting a bit gamey for some tastes. We tend to just blast away to get the desired results. :) Just make sure he's not allocating hits to the guys away from where you're shooting.

And as for rule 108 aren't all the teams in the Russian company within 16" of the platoon being assaulted because you replace the word platoon with company when talking about Russian units. If not this would make a hell of a lot more sense.

There's a clarification out there somewhere, and I unfortunately don't have time to dig it up right now. The wording makes of the rule makes it sound like DIFFERENT platoons can be drawn in, but then they'd ALREADY have to be the platoon being assaulted for that to work (or drawn in within 4" of initial contact). I've read "somewhere" that teams may only participate within 16 inches of actual combat, even if they're part of the platoon (company) under assault. Hopefully I'll find the info.

- Bob

Here's where assaults are discussed on the FoW forum:

link

Steve

I may have remembered incorrectly. This thread:
link
Seems to wind up with a conclusion that teams outside 16" CAN counterattack.

However, I just remembered something else. You don't care! You just want to stick around for more than one round to force them out of their foxholes. Then you WANT to break off, making sure that you've got enough support behind your assaulting teams to deter an assault in your opponent's turn.

At that point, they're in the open, and easy pickings for HMGs and anything else you can throw at them. The conga line works against your opponent as well.

It may be better to assault with AFVs, but this same approach should work with infantry. Just stick it out for more than 1 round so they are out of foxholes (if dug in).

- Bob

Strange things going on in FoW.

Who'd have thunk it!

I went to the Battlefront Forums

apparently we are playing it "right"

The whole Russian company can come running from a half click away if any member of their company gets assaulted.

One poster on the Battle Front forum uses it as "free" movement to get his Russians into position

"You get a 4" move every time. This is why my Soviets love it if a German player doesn't immediately disengage. 4" over and over can stack up and is nice if you were spread out and need to cover some ground. Sometimes I'll assault just for the movement."

I find this mechanic just too gamy for my tastes. Soviet infantry companies can be 33 bases which gives them the ability to cover over somewhere around 90" of board space.

I do enjoy all the other mechanics of flames of war, but this one seems to be in dire need of correcting. Is this the first time it has been brought up?

I've got no solutions but smaller groups or an action radius seems to be the easy answer (count Russian platoons as platoons instead of one gigantic cluster)

Derek H wrote:

Strange things going on in FoW.

Rules clarifications are hardly anything new. But thanks for your usual contribution to an otherwise useful discussion.

- Bob

Quadratus wrote:

[…] One poster on the Battle Front forum uses it as "free" movement to get his Russians into position

That was in reference to valid teams moving in a counter-attack, I believe. One guy had seemed to think that only teams within 2 inches could move. Later in that thread there are some clarifications about no wrapping, and such. The language in the assault rules is pretty clear on that topic.

Now that work's done, I've just re-read the rule language on page 108, and the last line reads "Teams that are more than 16 in./40cm from the platoon being assaulted cannot Charge into Contact." This is consistent with the earlier part of the same rule which reads "… move as if they were Charging into Contact with the platoon being assaulted." This is a counter-attack, so the platoon being assaulted is the one that attacked previously, not your own. Otherwise, the language doesn't make sense.

I'm going to try to nail down a confirmation, but that's the language that (still) makes me think it's limited to 16 inches. That's certainly how it's been played locally. If you look at:
link

Take a look at Dvang's post from 28 Sep 2007 03:10AM. They seem to agree on the interpretation that for a counterattack:

… Thus, my answer was to add/point out that if teams are > 16" they do not get the 4" Charge into Contact move during the counterattack, which was what was being discussed not the original assault charge move.

This is consistent with what I'm reading in the book on page 108.

[…] I've got no solutions but smaller groups or an action radius seems to be the easy answer (count Russian platoons as platoons instead of one gigantic clusterBleeped text)

This has (IMO) already been considered with the 16 inch overall limit, and the need to be within 4 inches to counterattack at all.

Sorry if I confused anything. That's what I get for trying to look something up quickly when I'm working! In effect, what this does is limit the counterattacking unit to bases within 16 inches of your (the original attacker) platoon. As the valid teams move, those left outside of 16 inches are now outside the 4 inch range as well, and unable to participate in the original furball no matter where it goes.

You should be able to play merry hell with his plans by assaulting with two units in succession!

- Bob

bobstro wrote:

But thanks for your usual contribution to an otherwise useful discussion.

Glad to be of service.

I don't know if this discussion is particularly useful. But it's certainly good for a laugh.

Derek H:

[…] I don't know if the discussion is useful. But it's certainly good for a laugh.

Ah, well we'll use your pithy contributions to TMP for the day as a benchmark then.

- Bob

kyoteblue wrote:

It's still a fun game.

I had fun playing Mousetrap with my daughter last weekend.

And Kerplunk.

Good for you!

Hungry Hungry Hippos is great fun.

"Strange things going on in FoW.

Who'd have thunk it!"

Stop that Derek…..,

You knew fine well about the "bungee rope" rule! I preferred the "victorian mountaineer" rule since they are all daisy chained together, If One slips into the assault abyss, they all get pulled in….

"I had fun playing Mousetrap with my daughter last weekend."

Watch out though, The mousetrap fans will be telling you that it gives a fun playable model of vermin control. It is the market leader of the genre…

..and remember you have no friends…..I'll see you tonight to reinforce that.

Lewis and Martin. Abbot and Costello. I always love it when the old duos get together again. Now that the twins are here, we just need Mithmee to drop in for a party. Sure, he's not as good as 'Grover, but he tries.

So which one's the left one?

- Bob

Bobstro,

Thanks for the clarification. 16" is a lot more reasonable for a counterattack.

I appreciate the effort

If you can get a couple of units in position prior to launching that first assault, it can make a big difference. You definitely don't want to trickle guys in. You've got better ratings, but fewer numbers, so get as many as you can in contact and (hopefully) cause that 4 inch break in the first round or two. His being strung out should make this easier.

I'd definitely keep those page number handy during the next game. :)

- Bob

You also may want to consider NOT assaulting Russian hordes with 7 stands of German infantry.

Also, I believe the counter attack only allows you to move 4 inches. Then only if you have at least one stand in contact only units teams within 4 inches can "swing" in the assault. So while over the course of an assault if you both continue to make your moral rolls to counter it is possible that the Russian player could draw in troops from 16 inches away it is more likely that one of you will fail their moral and break off.

But again, I think part of the issue may be that you are assaulting massive Russian companies with smaller German platoons. I haven't had much success with that type of activity. I find that standing off 11 inches with AFVs and Machine Gunning them to death is much more frustrating for the Russian player.

Ed G

But again, I think part of the issue may be that you are assaulting massive Russian companies with smaller German platoons. I haven't had much success with that type of activity. I find that standing off 11 inches with AFVs and Machine Gunning them to death is much more frustrating for the Russian player.

German units often had to go in and take out Russian units in close quarters so it should be feasible in the game. Now that I know the rules, I think it will be.

Standing off and trying to shoot up troops in bulletproof cover is ridiculously hard. I can't roll a 6 on a firepower test to save my life.

Quadratus wrote:

German units often had to go in and take out Russian units in close quarters so it should be feasible in the game. Now that I know the rules, I think it will be.

There are also some other rules pertaining to buildings that you'll want to be aware of. Don't forget that you can hit all teams in a building if you have LoS to an opening. Also, be clear as to whether or not you're using the Street Fighting rules.

Standing off and trying to shoot up troops in bulletproof cover is ridiculously hard. I can't roll a 6 on a firepower test to save my life.

For a large unit, even with decent rolls, it will probably take more turns than you have.

Don't forget that recce can lift Gone-to-Ground status.

I think your best bet is to ultimately get them out of the trenches. I know I hate giving up the holes when I'm playing my Soviets.

- Bob

Don't forget that recce can lift Gone-to-Ground status.

Gone to ground just makes em harder to hit, not bulletproof. Right? I need to remove bulletproof.

Pulling them out of their trenches is a good tactic, but limited if they go back into pre-existing bullet proof cover, like the buildings around Stalingrad!

Correct. Going GtG make them a +1 to hit. If you're going to be fighting in urban terrain, it's going to be a tough slog. Can you take any support that gives better Firepower ratings? I find .50 cal. MGs useful against dug-in targets. Any Quad 20mm about?

Are you using the Street Fight rules? There are some specifics on movement through buildings that should impact how easily he can move those valid teams in to assist his guys when you assault. We usually just ignore those, but then again, we're not fighting urban battles most of the time.

I've usually seen the challenge presented in terms of getting infantry out of foxholes. I wonder if you might have better luck breaking his chain of command and isolating pockets in those buildings, then defeating those individually?

Also, where are the objectives in relationship to all this? Could you create a gap in his lines and just exploit that, leaving the infantry in those buildings?

If all else fails, roll up one of those big SP guns and go all bunker-buster on his backside! :)

- Bob

bobstro wrote

Lewis and Martin. Abbot and Costello. I always love it when the old duos get together again.

Statler and Waldorf.

Beaker was the brains behind that operation.