"French Cuirassiers and carbines" Topic

I am just finishing assembling my Perry plastics French Cuirassiers but before I begin to prime them for painting can anyone tell me if they carried carbines in Spain (13th Regt). I can't find anything on google on it.

I pulled out my old copy of Bukhari's "Napoleon's Cavalry" to see what I can find

Cuirassier regiments were supposed to be armed with carbines from 1805 on, but for a variety of reasons were only equiped with An IX and An XIII pattern pistols until 1812 – starting in early 1812 cuirassier regiments were equiped with An XI pattern cavalry musketoons which included crossbelts and bayonets

As you know, the 13th was initially formed in Libourne in 1807 as a provisional cavalry regiment and then was designated the 13th regiment in 1808 – they served in Spain from 1808 to 1813, so I would guess that they would have had musketoons issued to them in 1812 (although I suspect troops in Spain were lower on the list for new equipment than the rest of the Grande Armee)

The dragoons withdrawn from Spain, after the Russian campaign of 1812, surrendered their musketoons (short infantry-style muskets) to equip new infantry levies for the 1813 campaign. I recall they kept only a few to equip sentries guarding their bivouacs in the field. There is every probability that this would have been the case for the 13th Cuirassiers as well. I like to do "squadrons" of French cavalry of six to eight figures, and would do only one trooper with a carbine or musketoon. That may, (1 in 6) in fact, be too many.

GdeP

Hi 1369traveler,

From what I can tell, the Cuirassier regt serving in Spain did have some muskets issued to them…but many of the troopers didn't seem to have them. It would also appear that some just used regular infantry muskets, and not musketoons (like the Perry's box has). However, you could do a bit of mixing. I would say out of a unit of 12 figs you could have 2-4 armed with a musketoon, which should look right.

A good print of the 13th Cuirassiers in Spain can be found in the H&C book, 'L'Epopee Napoleonienne' by Hourtoulle with illustrations by Jirbal. Another set of prints of the 13th can be found in Bueno's book, 'Los Franceses y sus Aliados en Espana 1808-1814, volume II'. And of course, there is Bucquoy's 'Les Cuirassiers' in the Uniforms of the 1st Empire series.

If you rely upon these sources of info then you should be able to piece together a good view of what the 13th Cuirassiers looked like in Spain.

And don't forget that many of them wore brown pants as well as jackets! Hence, you could do a real mix of regulation and field clothing, which would make a very colorful unit.

I am also going to paint a unit of the Perry's Cuirassiers up as the 13th. The figures just arrived today! Yeah!

Hope this info helps.

Of Possisble interest:

link

Hi Steven,

Thanks for the link. It is an interesting book on battle plans, formations, tactics, etc…but what is the relevance to the thread? Did I miss something? Thanks anyways for the book lead (it is downloaded and in the collection!).

As I understand it, the 13th was formed in 1808. A recent thread suggested that the 13th was made up of both Cuirassiers and Carabiniers (the latter – and presumably at least some of the former – being straight from the regimental depots). If so, what would the latter have worn – especially on their heads – since presumably their inclusion pre-dates the uniform changes of 1809-10?

Ark,

The link I provided should have taken you to the last part of the article "Le Centenaire des Cuirassiers"! I thought it might have some relevance. <;6}

Steve

Hi Steve,

Okay. What I found on your link was just some battle plan books in French. Can you resend the link for the Cuirassiers? Thanks.

OK, put this together so NO spaces between characters – after http:

link

Tried it…I get nothing…

Also, if this were a valid link then TMP would automatically put into as one.

Can you please try again. Thanks!

Well, it is NOT a valid link because I left a space after 'http:' ( so you could view the entire URL ) , just like I said! <;^}

Give it another shot.

Big Al

Hi ya Steven (aka 'Big Al'),

Sorry but the address still doesn't take me to any place but the original one you posted. I can see the reference you are mentioning but I can't access (or download) it. And I don't feel like buying it.

The book it shows is as follows:

Carnet de la Sabre-tache: revue militaire rétrospective
By Sabre-tache

In any event, if you look at the H&C book, 'L'Epopee Napoleonienne' by Hourtoulle with illustrations by Jirbal, you will find a good plate of the 13th in Espana along with info on their uniforms. For those of you that don't speak French, you can also see the H&C book, 'Soldiers and Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars' by the same author/illustrator team…which is essentially a translation into English.

Enjoy!

PS From other info I have found, the 13th was actually an amalgamation of various Cuirassier and Carabinier regts…all thrown together into the 13th.

Also, no reference to the 13th having been issued with musketoons, although they did seem to acquire Spanish muskets (when the Spanish threw them down and ran away from the fight [lol]). Hence, you could still mix in a few musketoons but in general have most without.

You will also have to work on the trumpeter, as the Perry's uniform will need some serious changes to make him suitable for the 13th in Espana.

Supercilius Maximus

As I understand it, the 13th was formed in 1808. A recent thread suggested that the 13th was made up of both Cuirassiers and Carabiniers (the latter – and presumably at least some of the former – being straight from the regimental depots). If so, what would the latter have worn – especially on their heads – since presumably their inclusion pre-dates the uniform changes of 1809-10?

The Carabiniers forming part of the 13th were forced to give up their bearskins and wear the Cuirassier helmet.

Hey, I just learned how to quote properly…it is amazing what you can do when you actually read the FAQ section at the bottom of the page…next time, some emoticons perhaps! Ah heck with it, go for it now…

+ =

Thank you.

OK, Arks, I now see your problem. No problem:

More than one way to skin a cat! This one is open to ALL readers:

link

Use right arrow (to some it may look like a right pointing triangle) to go to page 1. Enjoy!

Big Al

The carabiniers which formed part of this unit would have been wearing the old, unarmored uniforms with bearskin caps, right?

It would be interesting to know from where their replacements came.

I think I read somewhere that the 13th was the only cuirassier regiment to field 5 squadrons. If so, they must have been getting replacements from somewhere.

I did not check the link, but I would expect the typical trooper to be wearing armor and helmet, no?

For the earlier part of the article see:

Margerand (J.). "Le centenaire des cuirassiers." Carnet de la Sabretache, 2e série, t. III, 1904, pp. 513-531, 612-626, 641-653, 714-729.

1904 issue, t. III:

link
link

Note: The first part of the Gallica copy above has an index for the earlier issues of the "Carnet". One must go through that first to get to the articles.

Material relating to the 13e cuirassiers can be found in:

De Brye. Historique du 6e Régiment de cuirassiers:
link

Martimprey. Historique du 9e régiment de cuirassiers – d'après les archives du corps, celles du dépôt de la guerre et autres documents:
link
link
link

Thanks for the links Big Al!

Widowson 04 Nov 2009 2:17 p.m. PST

The carabiniers which formed part of this unit would have been wearing the old, unarmored uniforms with bearskin caps, right?

No…they wore the Cuirassier uniform, including the helmet.