"French Heavy Cavalry during the Peninsular Campaign" Topic

Having picked up Perry's new plastic French Hvy Cav I need to decide which unit to build for my Sharp Practice games. Can any of you learned Napoleonic gamers out there let me know what heavy cavalry units that fought in Spain could I turn my Perrys into. My internet searches have only turned up the 13th Cuirassier Regt.

That's all you get in Spain. The next heaviest thing to the 13th were dragoons.

See picture at bottom of page-
TMP link

Yep, there's just not a lot of good cavalry country in Spain…

…and even then, the 13e Cuirassiers were attached to Suchet's army in eastern Spain, so you don't even get to use them against Old Nosey's army. There is some speculation that the 13e didn't even wear their cuirasses in Spain.

Wondering if you could get some Mordenheim and Empire sprues to get all the wolfy bits to make La Loup's Brigade (Sharpe's Battle) out of them … If Cornwell can make them up, so can you.

I like your thinking Flashman. Especially since I'm reading that book right now. Using that same logic however I could make them any unit then. Who had the best uniform colours then, including allies?

I believe the Spanish had a single troop of Cuirassier. They had red coats and wore captured French armor. They would be a surprise to any French player. :)

Weren't there provisional cuirassier units attached to Dupont's forces that capitulated at Bailen. If memory serves right there were two provisional regiments sent to Spain, one of which ultimately became the 13th regiment. The equipment from the troops taken at Bailen were used by the Spanish to form their own Coraceros
picture
link

According to this link French cuirassiers took part at Fuentes de Oñoro, and Wellington was commanding the British.

DeanMoto: your link has the part about Wellington commanding correct, I don't know about the rest of it. They have French dragoons wearing blue coats too.

Alte Fritz – I caught the dragoons in blue too – wargamer be wary And the second picture in the link was my inspiration for ordering a box each of Victrix Highlanders & Perry Cuirassiers!

"In 1807 a detachment was sent to Spain where it was combined with detachments from the 1st and 2nd Cuirassiers and the 1st and 2nd Carabiniers to form the 1st Provisional Heavy Cavalry (designated the 13th Cuirassiers at the end of 1808)." – Wiki

I was going to mention the Spanish Cuirassier! An opportunity not to be missed for those with a Spanish army. I will certainly be buying these figures and adding a half regiment to my Spanish forces.

Definitely no French cuirassiers at Fuentes! Much of the information at that site is just wrong!

Colin is right – this link lists Peninsular battles of the 13th (no mention of Fuentes).

Three provisional regiments of heavy cavalry were formed at the end of 1807 for service in Peninsula. They were supposed to be formed with a compagnie of 3 officers and 120 men called from the 4e escadron de dépôt of each regiment. The regiments in central Europe formed the first two provisional regiments, for service in north/central Spain. The regiments in Italy formed the third provisional regiment for service in in the south/east. Originally commanded by majors, these officers were promoted to the rather unusual rank of colonel en 2e.

2e corps d'observation de la Gironde
1er régiment provisoire de grosse cavalerie – major Guillaume-François d'Aigremont (1770-1827, du 1er cuirassiers)
-- 1er régiment de carabiniers à cheval (4/119)
-- 2e régiment de carabiniers à cheval (4/118)
-- 1er régiment de cuirassiers (4/142)
-- 2e régiment de cuirassiers (2/138)
-- 3e régiment de cuirassiers (2/100)

2e régiment provisoire de cuirassiers – major Philippe-Albert Christophe (1769-1848, du 12e cuirassiers)
-- 5e régiment de cuirassiers (2/109)
-- 9e régiment de cuirassiers (2/64)
-- 10e régiment de cuirassiers (2/96)
-- 11e régiment de cuirassiers (3/120)
-- 12e régiment de cuirassiers (2/100)

These units moved to Madrid early in the year 1808. The 2e régiment provisoire de cuirassiers was at Bailèn – all killed or taken, the few dismounted or ill cuirassiers that remained at Madrid being sent into the 1er régiment provisoire de grosse cavalerie. It was this combined unit that was sent to Suchet, and later established as the 13e régiment de cuirassiers «L'intrépide». This unit served with distinction until disbanded at the first restoration.

corps d'observation des Pyrénées orientales
3e régiment provisoire de cuirassiers – major Antoine-Didier Guéry (1765-1825, du 8e cuirassiers)
-- 4e régiment de cuirassiers (~2/~100)
-- 6e régiment de cuirassiers (~2/~100)
-- 7e régiment de cuirassiers (~2/~80)
-- 8e régiment de cuirassiers (~2/~80)

This unit served with Duhesme, and was generally on occupation duties in the area around Barcelona. They wasted away steadily over the next two years, were reinforced by a second draft of nominally 400 men on the same regiments in early 1810, were very roughly handled at Mollet in January 1810 (the Spanish taking 250 trophy cuirasses), returned to southern France to refit, were then essentially forgotten about by the ministrère de la guerre, and were finally disbanded upon a second(!) order from Napoléon at the beginning of 1811.

Frayer

I have the 13th Cuirassiers wearing brown coats with deep red (wine) facings.

I would guess that the brown uniform of the 13th was a replacement after their original uniforms got used up during service in Spain. So you could be just as correct having them in brown or blue.

Cheers

Uniform notes for the 13e cuirassiers

-- initially uniformed per the originating regiments (each company different and the ex-carabiniers in bearskins)
-- in mid 1809 made up pantalons from local material in brown color (stuck in the boots, like the normal cuirassier pantalons and not looking like Mameluk style), retained old habits
-- In July 1812 refitted per regulation with new habits with "lie de vin" distinctives (a large convoy arriving from Pau), normal pants, gloves, etc., ex-carabiniers losing all residual distinction, trompettes in surtout of color lie de vin with white galons on the front (or habit with reversed colors – sources differ, so maybe both), some replacement cuirasses
-- in 1813, all new casques

Frayer

Frayer,
Do you think the contingent of ex-Carabinier's ever received the cuirasse?

Did Josephs Spanish also had a cuirasier regiment?

Dear Ligniere,

Until 1809 the carabiniers would not have touched armor, and likely hoped to be sent back some time ot their own brigade. They were kept together in one escadron, at least at first.

For mid-1809 to mid-1812, there may have been enough armor delivered in small batches, or from men in the hospitals, to armor some of the ex-carabiniers. But I would not paint them that way unless I had some more reason to think that they were so equipped. I would just do pre-armor carabiniers with brown pants.

With the large July 1812 convoy, I suspect that there was enough equipment to make everyone more-or-less a 13e cuirassier, with armor. Some bearskins might, possibly, have lasted until the new casques were delivered in 1813.

Dear mashroomca,

No heavy cavalry at all, even in the Royal Guard. The chevau-légers de la garde royale were the "heavist" in Jospeh's service, as far as I know. They came with him from Naples.

Frayer

No. The Joseph Spanish Army had not courasiers.

The Spanish Armies had coursases captured from the french.
they had not that "heavy" cavalry.

Amicalement
Armand

"… If Cornwell can make them up, so can you."

I agree entirely with Flashman. I fully intend to have a unit of cuirassiers or carabineers in my SP games despite:

a) They were not present in the conflict, and

b) If they were it seems a tad unlikely that a group of 6 or so would go out for a bit of skirmishing in their armour. That's light cav stuff.

But, by golly, I am buying them, and getting them painted, so I am jolly well using them on the battlefield.

Whatisitgood4atwork,

"b) If they were it seems a tad unlikely that a group of 6 or so would go out for a bit of skirmishing in their armour. That's light cav stuff."

Could be a detachment to guard something or someone, or just foraging, looting, etc. There are not alot of heavy cavalry memoirs, but they do report being sent or going about in small groups sometimes.

"a) They were not present in the conflict"
They were, to the limited extent listed above. And you can expand this geographically – sent to guard delivery of something – supplies, remounts, messages, money, prisoners – or someone – senior officer, government official, senior prisoner – from where they served to someplace else, sent to hospital, replacements coming from France, etc.

Really, for SP scenarios, you don't have to be too careful, as small groups where scattered about quite nicely. You are still within historical "limits", no problem at all.

:-)

Frayer

Well my unreproachable source (Bernard Cornwell in Sharpe's Rifles) has Cuirassiers in Santiago de compostella fighting rifles and mounted Spanish Cazadores so it has to be true! And in this scenario you can use priests and a beautiful young English lass and a mysterious strongbox as objectives for your troops. That being said, don't spoil it for me because Sharpe hasn't rescued the young lass yet and I can't wait to see how he saves the day and gets his heart broken.

Well if its Sharpe it must be accurate.

I am with you Whatisitgood4….

In the end, this is a miniature game, and if you buy and paint entire brigade or a division of the armoured boys, I guess they will take their place on the table.

I for one have brigade of Bavarian inf and another one of cav. (foundry Bavarians are very nice)and in my games Bavarians have send troops to Spain.

Cheers