"Glorious Defeats" Topic

What are some of the great/heroic DEFEATS of History? By that I mean tactical defeats that were heroic in that they ultimately lead to victory OR immortality.

This was inspired by the discussion on last stands.

Some of my ideas:

Thermopylae
The Alamo
Bunker Hill
Liegnitz
Isandlwana
Dunkirk
The Roman defeats against Pyhrus

Aren't these the same as glorious last stands?

The Glorious First of June – major tactical victory for the British, but a major strategic success for the French, as the grain convoy from America got through and so Revolutionary France didn't starve to death.

Berezina – French soundly defeated! – but Glorious. <;^}

Charge of the light Brigade.

Camarone.

When Dana refused to go out with me three times in a row, I conceded glorious defeat. Now I suspect it was for the best.

Charles the V was pretty good at glorious defeats for his own army.

The Swiss beat him badly on a number of occasions, before literally removing his head (I don't think he became immortal, but is immortalized as a particularly bad military leader).

Still, he had a very interesting, combined arms army for the time.

Not the same as last stands. At Bunker Hill and Dunkirk they mostly got away but lost the battle. However, they were moral victories that went down in legend.

Sorry Steve, weren't you following the other thread, Berezina was a glorious French victory! Just like their other glorious French victories at Busaco, Albuera and the Lines of Torres Vedras.

There's always Gettysburg (if you were a Reb) or the Siege of Sebastapol (if you were a Russian)

The French 1st Empire ?
My 1st Marriage ?

(I learned all I needed to know about community property settlements by studying the Congress of Vienna.)

Frayer

Zama.

Dieppe.

Pearl Harbor. A great tactical victory that began a chain of events which didn't quite work out the way they were supposed to.

I like the Pearl Harbor, I almost put it down myself, but didn't feel like explaining my logic.

Zama??

By Gettysburg I take it you mean Picketts Charge. I agree, if it brings a tear to your eye when you watch the movie then it was a glorious defeat.

Since it is 28th of October, Greece 1940-1941.

Zama?

Not Hanibal's best day.

Charge of the light Brigade

Except that wasn't a defeat. The LB got through to the Russian guns, sabred the gunners and attacked and beat the Russian cavalry beyond; half of them even got back to their start lines. A mistake certainly, a blunder even, but not a defeat in my book.
link

Mmmm--Yes it was a deafeat as throwing away half your cavalry for no real reason(they should have charged up the hill to stop some guns getting towed away)…Also yes half the men got back but they could only mount about 100 men afterwards--No point in having cavalry unless they have horses mate!!!

Did the British cav capture any guns? Did they force the Russians of any ground they took? So the guns took a hour off to get reordered and start shooting again. And for this the British loss half a cav brigade…pretty much defunct for the rest of the campaign. Seems like a loss to me.

There wasn't actually a battle called "The charge of the light Bridgade" was there. I thought it was just one part of a battle called Balaclava that was actually a victory anyway.

Rocesvalles,

At least for Roland…

link

I also like the quote on General John Reynold's memorial at Gettysburg:

"None died here with more glory, though many died, and there was much glory".

Berlin, in WWII.

Edwulf:
"There wasn't actually a battle called "The charge of the light Bridgade" was there. I thought it was just one part of a battle called Balaclava that was actually a victory anyway."

Was it a win? The Russians held the ground and 9 guns captured. And destroyed a British cav brigade.What did the russians lose? Some troops easily replaced. The Allies had two infantry divisons march up…then go back to camp. Don't think I'd call that a win. But you're right about the Charge being part of a battle. My bad.

On the other hand, the Russians did not reach the supply depot they were aiming for, which would have caused huge problems for the Allies. So it can hardly be termed a Russian victory.

A "mutual embarrassment" might be a better term for it.

Berezina or Balaclava?

Kasserine Pass, from the American point of view. Badly defeated, the Americans finally begin to learn how to fight. The dead wood in the US command structure begins to be exposed and weeded out, command is simplified, the troops are blooded, and in general the US Army becomes far more efficient as a fighting force than it was before, arguably as the result of a serious thrashing.

Old guard at Waterloo and how they marched off the field intact while the rest of the army crumbled around them.

Tet Offensive. Tactically they took nothing. Strategically they shook the nation to its core.

Malplaquet, if a bloody shambles can be glorious.

Gallipoli

I like this thread much more, a list rather than a comparison.

I'll add the Spanish Naval defeat of Santiago de Cuba where the spanish admiral Cervera being coped and blocked in port decided to sail to fight losing all ships. Totally useless but a lot of valour fighing against impossible odds.

Another one is Baler, Philipinnes. The spanish garrison sieged fought even after the war was some time over and only surrendered with honours after other spaniard military and diplomats convinced them of the end of the war.

I strongly second Palafox's nomination of Santiago de Cuba. Indeed, Cervera's entire mission to the Caribbean was a military lost cause but served an important political purpose – that of maintaining a stable government in Spain that had several enemies looking for a weakness to tear into it and return the country to the chaos of the previous decade.

Militarily, it was foolishness, but Spanish honor was served, and this kept the country together in spite of military defeat.

Mark

Malplaquet 1709.

Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Culloden

Charge of Light Brigade was bizarrely a resounding success. The Russian cavalry never dared confront British cavalry again. part of the psychological effect was the perfectly sensible charge of the Heavy Brigade earlier that day, but then the Ruskies discovered they weren't fighting nice sensible warriors like their Cossacks ;) but utter homicidal/suicidal nutters who would attack through a 3-way crossfire, sabre you then trot off in good order. They bricked themselves, utterly.

Britain didn't lose much as vast majority of horse & cav casualties would have died of exposure, starvation or typhoid that winter anyway.

Arnhem a bridge too far.

Fontenoy 1745. The Brit infantry went out in glorious style…less a few thousand men.

Thanks Mark.

Never thought of that political angle but it's a good one.

on a smaller scale,the nearly total destruction of the James-Younger Gang at Northfield Minn!!

and maybe the Battle of the Clark Street Garage , Chicago Illinois, also known as The Northside Gangs Last Stand (literally)!

Guilford Court House,

American defeat, yet Fox's quote "Another such victory would ruin the British Army." sums up the battle.

>Old guard at Waterloo and how they marched off the field >intact while the rest of the army crumbled around them.

Except for the ones who ran.

>Berlin, WWII.

A Soviet victory over a decidedly nasty regime. Not glorious at all, based on what I've read, especially for the civilians.

By Gettysburg I take it you mean Picketts Charge. I agree, if it brings a tear to your eye when you watch the movie then it was a glorious defeat.

Makes me want to cheer!

I nominate the Battle of the Monocacy, 1864. Lew Wallace lost the battle, but possibly saved Washington, DC, from Jubal Early by delaying him, and providing time for part of the 6th Corps to arrive from Petersburg. "Early was late."

Belgium , 1914. Not total defeat since they held onto corner of country but utter catastrophe. Proverbially 'gallant' though

I guess any battle with a good poem write-up- Cattraeth, Maldon, Cuchulainn's last fight, & the fight where the sand of the desert was sodden red because the Gardner was jammed & the colonel was dead but everyone played up & played the game?

Mount Gilboa (2 Sam chapter 1 & KING DAVID 1985)

Robert de Niro in THE MISSION- how factual was that?

Austrians at Sadowa 1866
Danes vs. them & the Prussians 2 years earlier

Anything involving Garibaldi & Italian patriots
Paris rebels on the barricades 1830s-40s, especially when singing (still aim to game this one day…)

The Von Trapps getting disqualified from the singing contest for being deserters & enemies of the state (OK, I know they left Austria in the 1920s but its a good story)

German Offensives spring 1918

Picketts charge…"Makes me want to cheer!"

Yeah, me too, I'm with the boys in blue gleefully shouting "Fredricksburg! Fredricksburg!"

David & Goliath, from the POV of the bookmaker at the back of the Philistine host jumping for glee (There is a humourous greeting card to this effect)