"Does anyone do early russians in bicornes?" Topic

Find myself looking at another AB line again.

In my defence I have both early french and ottomans so early russians would be a practical move right?

Also, i have about 60 cossacks painted (for fun) which would be great for 1802 italy campaign or suvorovs war againt the turk.

Anyways, i dont think ive EVER seen an early russian army in any scale. Does anyone here have one or a link to one?

That's interesting.. when did the shako actually replace the Bicorne?

TW

1806'ish I think…

I think Battle Honours did a series of Russian packs for their French Revolution line in 15mm.

I've only ever seen 1805 Russians in a shako looking thing.

I'd be surprised if that was incorrect, given the number of books and figures which repeat it.

link

1802-1805
Headwears (mitre caps, shakos), Collars, Shoulder-Straps, and Cuffs

Under the Suvarov link, it has an illustration of:

Russian musketier 1763-1786

in something approaching a tricorn, rather than a bicorn – at least a peaked bicorne, anyway.

you may be looking for something which did not exist.

Im talking about these dudes

link

Ive seen paintings of suvorov crossing the alps. Im pretty sure they are bicornes m8.

link

I'd call that a tricorn, myself.

Bicorne wouldn't have the peak bit forard.

But its the same illustrations in the end, so we are agreeing.

Has anyone done them as an army? Suvarov certainly deserves a bit of gaming.

But the 1802 – 1805 reference to Shakos may complicate things a little for you for expanding your opponents.

A bit of research on when the uniform changed over and whether it was universal, or staggered, is required I think.

Tricorns:

link

Big Al

Im not really sure of the changeover either but during the 1799 campaign in italy im pretty sure these are bicornes. Maybe someone expert can save me here.

I read the reference on that site and not convinced it shows the whole picture.

The AB figures in the link show true bicornes and are labeled as "pre 1805" Im quite sure antony barton had his references for these? Hes usually right on the money with his sculpting and this would be a major error if not.

So perhaps there was a crossover period between the SYW style tricorne, bicorne and shako? If anyone can recomend sources that would be great.

ok so now im googling "russians in bicornes" and the only references I can find are toy ones lol.

elite do russians in bicornes too link

If this is just a "sculpters myth" then i will be highly ammused :)

You should do these in 28s…

Russians wore bicornes during the 1799 campaign in Italy and Switzerland.

What is your authority?

ahh yes, they wore Shako's by the 1805 campaign.

stand corrected.

random internet link says they dropped their bicorned in 1803.

So now wondering when they moved from clipped ticornes to "true" bicornes.

I've done a few from Minifigs,to fill a unit or two.

ahh yes, they wore Shako's by the 1805 campaign.

stand corrected.

And what is YOUR source? It works both ways.

I've never seen it proven that the change in headgear was completely in effect by Austerlitz in 1805. I would imagine that some of the grenadiers, other than the Pavlovs, were still wearing the mitre too. Military Illlustrated magazine had an article about the Russians at Austerlitz in the early 1990s and they show them wearing some of everything: bicorns and shakos/mitres and shakos.

Blucher,
As said before Battlehonours do some early Russians in Bicorne/chapeau.These are some of Mr Bartons best figures
picture
picture
Regards,

I think AB is wrong here. The new double breasted tunic was authorized on 30 April 1802 and Shakos replacing tricorns (or bicorns if you want) on 19 August 1803. So I think the combination of double breasted tunics and tricorns is wrong for 1799. In 1805 the Shakos issued in 1803 were already been replaced by the a new model from 13 February 1805. This is all from Mark Conrad's translation of A.V. Viskovatov work on the Russian Army. Also see Osprey Warrior on Russian Grenadiers and Infantry 1799-1815.

Scotty Bowden argues that the Russians wore bicorne at Austerlitz in his book "The Glory Years 1805". I remember John Cook in First Empire review on that book saying the opposite.

But even so, I have some tricorne wearing figures mixed in with the Shako ones for my 1805-07 armies in 15/18mm (AB) and 28mm (Elite). They just look the part.

cheers

Steven,

One of my sources is the very picture that you posted a link to; those chaps are clearly wearing bicornes, not tricornes.

For a better reference, I would give you:

Gryazev, Captain (ed. Orlov, N.) Italyansky Pokhod Suvorova v 1799g., po Zapiskami Gryazeva

He gives a very clear description of the uniform.

Viskovatov Volume 7b also gives uniforms for 1796-1801 and agrees with the above that "hats" (bicornes) were worn.

Battle Honours here's the link:

link

The generals set includes a Souvorov bear-headed and in shirtsleeves.

link

Tricorn or bicorn?:

1799:
link

1805:
picture

1812:
link

Dates ?:
picture

link

Once, he tried something different, but did not like it:
picture

Q. E. D. <;^}

Pluses: The last guy who wore it conquered most of Europe.

Minuses: From a distance, it looks like a giant possum is asleep atop your head.

Napoleon's ‘knuckle buster' (1809):

picture

And what is YOUR source? It works both ways.

lol, Alte, it was not me who challenged you, it was Mr Smith. I was merely seing the evidence for the shako and agreeing.

What Viskovatov says is "шляпы" (modern spelling), and specifically described as being those of the prior reign.

The word is just generic "hats" – google the modern spelling and select images -
link

And, of course, this superb example from those image results – it would be nice if this one was a шляпа*, no ?
picture

* That is actually funny if you know a certain slang meaning of шляпа – trust me. Sorry for the digression – but I just love that Russian pouting/thoughtful/thoughtless "look".

OK, ahem – back to the little lead guys and their headwear.

Here are a sample of the illustrations from the Viskovatov -
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
picture
And in color even -
link

To me, the cover is best described as a "tricorn". It typically has more of a third corner than a French chapeau de cavalerie of the same era, but less than a tricorn of the AWI. There appears to have been either some variation in the styling, or some uncertainty in the mind of the artists of the plates. If it looks more a "bicorn" to someone – well, ok, sure. I do 40mm – if you have 28mm or 15mm, I am not too sure that there is a visible difference anyway

Frayer

I guess the best way to describe them is as being a transition phase between the tricorn and the bicorn. Should we ask Richard Dawkins for an opinion?

My point was that they were wearing neither the old fashioned 7YW style tricorn nor the shako in 1799.

Shane: I'm just using the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals and using the opponent's own tactics against him.

Or as Ben Bradley told Woodward and Bernstein: give me three sources before I will allow you to put it into print.

I readily acknowledge that Mr. Smith knows more about the period than I could ever hope to amass, so I appreciate his comments very much.

Let me be clear about this: No metter what I think they are called, in English, bicorns (or bicornes) as they have two corners not three. I was myself surprised by the correct answer.

I think the important points are the flatness across the back and the rounding around the front – these features are necessary to portray them in the miniatures.

My thought about a bicorn is what I know as a 'fore and aft' hat – a point on both ends and rounded on both sides. Also a bicorn.

I was also surprised by the 'cocked hat' – a 'fore and aft' with up-turned ends. Also a bicorn.

Again, these are English language usages.

Big Al

I would be very grateful if any of you would like to contribute to the design of our upcoming Suvarov Russians as part of our French Revolutionary Wars.

Please contact me via the Eureka Web Site eurekamin.com.au

Nic EUREKA MINIATURES

According to the Encyclopedia of Napoleonic Uniforms, the Russians from 1796 switched from the "Potemkin" uniform to something closely resembling the Prussian uniform under Frederick, except that the hat had become a bicorn, as was the fashion of the time.

I have the BH Russian infantry figures for the Wars of the French Revolution, and this is the uniform they wear (e.g. lapels, not double breasted coat). They are terrific figures, and also can be used for the other armies of the time that imitated the army of Frederick (mine are going to be painted as Dutch for the Flanders campaign).

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

Peter

Quite so, Peter. Those regulations are available for download:

Opisanie mundirov infanterii (1797):

PDF link

And can be seen at:

link

Russia, 1796 [part 1].
Russia, 1796 [part 2].
Russia, 1796 [part 3].
Russia, 1796 [part 4].
Russia, 1796 [part 5].

The original color charts can be seen and downloaded here:

PDF link

Note: One color chart at the begining and one at the end of the work. This is a very important work as it contains much much more information.

Thanks, Steven.

Those are fantastic sources.

It is almost enough to compel me to paint my Russians as Russians (for Switzerland and the 1799 Den Helder campaign).

If I do Surorov, I can make alpine vistas for the table top, perhaps a 15mm "Heidi" as a civilian bystander… Ok, I'm getting carried away. But it is really a fine looking army (and under Surorov, a well-lead one also).

Cheers,

Peter

Czar Paul was an admirer of Frederick the Great, so when he became the ruler, he went "retro" on the army's uniforms, getting rid of the sensible Potemkin uniform. When Paul was "removed" from the throne, his son Alexander brought in new uniforms. See, sons always think that their fathers are silly old gits and want to do everything completely the opposite of what the father did.

Thus the Suvurov Russian army has a different appearance than the one at Austerlitz.

Dear Steven,

Very nice "stuff", as usual ! I had never seen the texts before.

Thank you!
Frayer

PRossL,
what do you use for dutch 1792-1795 grenadiers? (they had bearskins)

I haven't decided yet, but am weighing going either with BH Fr. Rev. Wars Austrian Grenadiers (in the advance position, the absence of lapels is not too obvious, and can be painted over) or with Saxon pre-1810 Grenadiers (Eureka, OG or OO). I like the BH Austrians very much, and am inclining towards them.

Cheers,

Peter

I find the discussion about bicornes or tricornes highly amusing, the only real bicorne I know, without even a hint of a "corner" at the front – is that one the Prussian Army did wear in the campaigns of 1792 to 1785, all other hats had sort of a tip at the front, at least indicating a third "edge" .

So what is mostly termed to be a bicorne is a flattened tricorne

For Russians, yes Battle Honours.

Here a good 1 / 72 scale figure showing the immense hip pack for 1799 and more or less gives good proportions on the equipment.

picture

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and here BH Russian Jäger of 1799

picture

Thanks,
was thinking about using OG Saxons for line and grenadiers as both had the open fronted coats. Haven't seen the BH Russians "in the flesh" though

greetings
jan

Yes, a "flattened tricorne" would be a bicorn/bicorne in English, even if it is "highly amusing". <;^}

Big Al

link

this is the link to an italian club who refought the Trebia 1799

Terrific looking game.

I highly recommend the BH Russians: they are classic Anthony Barton sculpts, with the typical fine proportions and detail, but in 15mm, rather than 18mm. I've started painting up some Austrian Grenadiers from the range, and they are simply the nicest figures I have painted for any period or scale.

Cheers,

Peter

Patrice Courcelle did some nice illustrations and several articles in Tradition magazine, showing well the equipment – like the hunge hip pack

picture

Blucher
The Russian infantry uniform worn during Suvorov's Italian campaign was closely based on the Prussian pattern. Hessian AWI miniatures or even Prussian SYW ones are perfectly useable for the 1799-1800 period. One can argue about whether the hat was tri or bi. I think of the 1790s as being more of a 2 1/2-corne…
The AB figure in bicorne and later uniform is indeed a sculptor's myth.
The best source on these uniforms is the Russian three part work called 'Regularnaya Pekhota'. It was published in the late 1990s IIRC.
EC