"History's greatest Last Stand?" Topic

Thermopylae.
Everything else is 2nd place.

Except Thermopylae was not a LAST stand.

It was a rearguard action to allow the rest of the army to get away to fight anotherday – therefore by definition it was not a last stand.

IMO a last stand has to be the final fight of something more than a rearguard – regardless of how brave or noble their sacrifice.

The British druids on Anglesey for example – it was, literally, their last stand – they were wiped out and druidism destroyed.

Or the final battle of Spartacus's slave revolt, or Carthage's 2 1/2 year seige in the 3rd Punic war, or Vercingetorix at Alesia.

These are all LAST stands – the loser was utterly destroyed – not just the combatants doing the fighting, but whole societies and ways of life.

I disagree. A "last stand" refers to the unit fighting, not the culture as a whole. Yes, it may come down to the culture or the society (rarely), but that's not really the standard. The standard is "Did this group of combatants decide to hold out at a certain place on a certain date against overwhelming odds in the face of certain defeat?" If so, despite the fact that the war goes on, such an event is indeed a "last stand."

So, yes, Thermopylae was a last stand. And I think it did far more than just delay Persia. It showed the Greeks that they could fight the Persians, and inspired them to do so. What would have happened if the Spartans had fled, or been overwhelmed in the first day as everyone expected? What would the effect on Greek morale have been? In that respect, the movie 300, for all its excesses, had one thing right: the courage of Leonidas and the Three Hundred gave all of Greece the courage they needed to fight Persia and win. Sometimes a story is the greatest victory of all.

Me, and any math test in college

Can I ask what it is that people find annoying about 'excessive cross posting'? I've seen this mentioned in several discussions and I've never really understood the problem. When I started this thread, I reasoned that Last Stands had occured throughout history, and therefore it would be a little illogical to only post it in (eg) the 'Early 20th Century Discussion Message Board'. Can someone explain the issue that some have about cross-posting? Is it in some way bad internet ettiquette?

Back to the Last Stands:

I think there have been some great suggestions so far – I had heard of Camerone, but this thread prompted me to do some reading up on it.

One thing that strikes me is that there are virtually no Last Stands which resulted in the defenders being completely wiped out. Generally, the men fought until it was simply stupid not to surrender or flee – the Glorious Gloucesters eventually abandoned their position or were taken prisoner. Even at Camerone, it seems three men survived and some men managed to flee from Isandlwana. Not that this takes anything away from ant of these magnificent and inspirational feats of courage.

One Last Stand where no one survived was the Shangani Patrol under the gallant Major Wilson. In December 1893, 31 Rhodesians were cut off and fought to the end against wave after wave of Matabele warriors – estimated at several thousand.
To make it even more remarkable, Wilson was thought to have been one of the last to die, and the last few men gave a lusty rendition of 'God Save the Queen' as they prepared to meet their maker. It was even more noteworthy in that some of them could have escaped death, but they did not want to abandon their wounded comrades – 'they were not the sort of men to leave their mates behind' to quote one of their contemporaries.

Pointless, a waste of life, a result of mistakes etc etc – but who can fail to be moved by such a tale?

Battle of the Imjin river gets my vote.

No.2 Independent Platoon, Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps, in their gallant last stand against the Japanese at Victoria Power Station, Hong Kong were completely wiped out. Every man was killed in action or murdered immediately afterwards. The platoon was a 'Dad's Army' type unit of around sixty WW1 veterans raised by one Major Hughes. They were more commonly known by their nickname 'Hugheseliers', though the British Army garrison often jokingly referred to them as the 'Methuseliers' due to their advanced years! Nevertheless, like the Old Guard at Waterloo, the Hughseliers 'died but did not surrender'.

Another unit that was utterly wiped out was 'C' Company of 152 (Indian) Para Battalion, commanded by a Major Fuller, which found itself isolated on an Assam hilltop in the path of the Japanese 31st Division's advance on Sangshak and Kohima. The story would not have been known, had the diary of a Japanese colonel not been found on his body at Kohima, which described how a British officer, with all his men dead and all hope gone, stood up in full view of the Japanese and shot himself… Something that deeply impressed the Japanese watching.

Stalingrad was not a last stand per se. The Russians could have retreated anytime they liked.

The Alamo did not buy time for the Texians. They were still bickering & something like a fortnight after they were all dead Houston was unaware & cursing them as layabouts. When they learnt their fate they went into headlong retreat. Ultimate victory had a great deal to do with the morale effect of their fate & nothing to do with 'time'

Camerone is kewl, mainly because the commander had a wooden hand.

I don't know if there is a name for the battle, but
what about Saigo and his band of "rebel samurai" who were eventually surrounded by the Emperors troops and died to a man.

And what about the Swiss Guard on the steps of the Vatican around 1527/8 The troops of Charles the V were breaking in to Rome and headed straight for the Vatican. The swiss guards stayed to protect the Vatican. I am not sure if they died to a man, but if memory serves correctly they faced overwhelming odds.

"Stalingrad was not a last stand per se. The Russians could have retreated anytime they liked."

Umm, I think he meant a last stand for the German 6th Army, not the Russians.

BullDog: I wouldn't be concerned about the excessive cross posting thing. If anyone cared, besides a very small minority, this thread wouldn't have over 100 responses in it.

Given the criteria then perhaps Mers-El-Kebir is a legitimate last stand for the French Fleet in 1940, but as in many naval engagements there is little choice in the matter beyond the senior commanders.

One problem with last stands is that we have the hindsight of knowing the outcome but to those on the ground it would have been just another day until events turned against them. At some point it becomes obvious that there is an obvious result but it is a triumph of discipline and comradeship over expectation of victory that results in such a last stand.

It may also be impossible to organise a surrender in any case. Where the option of flight is denied then all you have left is fight!

Can I also speak up for the cavalry (in addition to the US 7th). The "death ride" of Von Bredow's brigade in 1870 and the Light Brigade in the Crimea are examples equally as heroic as any last stand.

One of my favourites is the last stand of the defenders of Convento de la Caridad in Zaragoza in the second siege (1809). They fought literally to the last man. The last defenders hold the choir of the church, with their backs to the walls, while the French grenadiers tried to close through the nave, using the bunks as cover. When the ammo was gone, the last few defenders charged and were wiped out after a short melee.

It didn't change the outcome of the siege. Zaragoza fell to the French, after more than one half of her population was dead. When the French saw the columns of prisoners they thought they looked like ghosts.

Another one from the Peninsula was the siege of Gerona.

And one of my favourites: the last stand of a battery of Spanish field artillery trying to cover the retreat of Cuesta's army after Medellin. They died to the man, defending the guns… though it was a pity, because they were the best trained soldiers in the Spanish army. A real waste of brave lifes.

It's curious how many last stands happened because brave, good men, are left in the lurch by the criminal incompetence and callouness of their commander officers.

Land: Camerone is pretty damned impressive.

Sea: HMS Jervis Bay & Beaverford or HMS Rawalpindi (since Ludovic Kennedy has just died and his father went down with the ship).

It's curious how many last stands happened because brave, good men, are left in the lurch by the criminal incompetence and callouness of their commander officers.

That's the way of things I'm afraid.

A couple more

Sir Richard Bolle and his 700 of his Royalists surrounded and defending themselves to the last in the church at Alton Hampshire in 1643.

'L' Battery RHA at Nery 1st September 1914

link

This is a not very known "last stand".

In the "Triple Aliace War" (Paraguay against Brasil-Argentina-Uruguay) in 1865 the Brasilian Army strong in 18.000 tried to take Asunción (Paraguayan Capital City).

The Paraguayan Army was cut to pieces in many battles years before, so they had only a Cavalry Brigade with 680 riders, and infantry Batallon of veterans of 450 and a new Batallon conformed by boys from 8 to 11 years old!

Their order was to fight a rearguard action to retard the entry of Asunción from the enemy.

So young were those "kid soldiers" that the veterans had cut the hair of their horses and glued them in the faces of that chidrens so they can look as men at the distance.
Those poor childrens were armed with wooden muskets. Only wood, like toys. they can fire but they had a real bayonnete in those "guns".

That was they first and last battle.

They resisted in a place called "Costa Ńu" (Ńu Coast)under the protections of a very tall grass and yungle threes.
When the Brasilians atack them they resisted as lions three times and repulsed the brasilians veterans fighting hand to hand .
the Brasilian army send to them grapeshot, cannon balls, etc and they can broke the "child-batallon" position.

When one of these poor childs felt wounded, his mother run to help him because the mothers of those brave childrens were hidden at the back of their position suffering only as mothers can suffer.

The battle run for four hours and the veteran Paraguayan forces retired with big losses, but the little childrens remain in their position, fighting with the pourpose of gain time for the rest of their Army.
When the Brasilians take note that their casualties were amount and that the childres had not ammo, they sent fire in a circle to the tall grass.
All the remanent of the childrens and all the mothers died there burned.
That battle was called as "The heroes childrens of Costa Ńu" and there is a monument in the center of Asunción with military honour guard 24 hrs per day.

This was for me the bravest last stand I had heard.

Amicalement
Armand

Unfortunately children often make good soldiers because they do not know enough to run away!

They believe what they are told without critical thought, and so bravery does not coe into it.

Parzival by that definitino every soldier who ever died made a "l;ast stand" – which is ridiculous.

But even with that definition Thrmplylae does not make the top of the list – the Greeks had chosend the very best defensive position in all of Greece, where the Persians could only fight with equal numbers.

Compare this to, say, the rear guard at Dunkirk – facing the oncoming unbeatable panzers without anti-tank weapons, without being the best soldiers in the world and without having the very best position avaialble.

To me the men who stayed behind there without complaint were arguably a braver mob than Leonidas & his 300 Spartans AND the 1100 Thespaeans who also stayed but who usually get forgotten.

But IMO rear guards are not last stands, because there are fights to come afterwards, so they cannot be "last" by definition.

And how can you compare Thermopylae to the seige of Carthage for 2 1/2 years that resulted in the complete destruction of the Carthaginian people and society?

1400 Greek soldiers standing as a rearguard for the rest of their army to escape, vs 250k Carthaginians of all ages & genders standing for their very existance with no chance of escape? Having handed over all their weapons and then refusing even moer outrageous terms after they had fulfilled the earlier ones? IMO that's just as noble, if not more so!

Just not as well known!

Might be seen as political ,ooh eebies ,jeebies ,Rodimtsevs guards in
Stalingrad is probably the best in whole history of man.Spartans are fantastic ,western legacy and all,the best the strongest …………Soviets were best placed to diametrically oppose an dismantle the purported nazi threat. Looking for the image,Rodimstevs Guards fought and died here!

Mongols vs. Assassins

Armand

That's an incredible story – thanks for sharing.
It's nice to have my Anglo-Centric eyes opened.

"Sea: HMS Jervis Bay & Beaverford or HMS Rawalpindi (since Ludovic Kennedy has just died and his father went down with the ship).

It's curious how many last stands happened because brave, good men, are left in the lurch by the criminal incompetence and callouness of their commander officers.

That's the way of things I'm afraid."

Fitting out cargo liners as auxiliary cruisers, with obsolete guns, no armour and inadequate fire control systems, and then expecting them to take on real cruisers, and "panzerschiff"s does tend to fit with your definition. Not for nothing were AMCs (Armed Merchant Cruisers) also known as "Admiralty Made Coffins".
On the other hand, the SS Beaverford was simply a Merchant ship with a 4" gun mounted on the poop for local defence against submarines. Was her "last stand" the result of "criminal incompetence and callousness"? Or was it a very gallant act made with agreement of her whole crew? Afterall, as civilians, her crew were not expected, or required to follow the Master's orders under those circumstances, unlike a warship's crew.

Galvinm said
"Thermopylae.
Everything else is 2nd place"
I couldn't put it better.

I often wonder who is left to tell of the bravery of the last standers? Are there some others watching from a distance or does one of the wounded makes it back to tell? Or does the enemy sing praises to their foe?

You read tales of Soviet gun crews in the early war all alone killing legions of Germans only to die to the last man. Who is reporting this? Or is this just a tale to inspire the others?

You read tales of Soviet gun crews in the early war all alone killing legions of Germans only to die to the last man. Who is reporting this? Or is this just a tale to inspire the others?

Probably there is a lot of propaganda and rethorics after every story of heroical behaviour in any war. But that doesn't mean there is more than a grain of truth on the stories. Say that from some unknown source we learn that the Spartans that died in the Thermopylae were afraid, that at the end many of them would have liked to surrender, but by then it was too late because the Persians were not in the mood of taking prisoners. Imagine we learn of all that. However they wouldn't be less heroical. Why? Because the moment that they decided to stand and die, even if some repented later, in the face of real death, was the moment of selfless heroism… In that instant they surely knew that there were not a way back; that they were about to die and even so decided to stay and fight. For their city, their ideal of what liberty meant to them or, most probably, just because their pals were decided (or looked as they were)to fight regardless the odds. I remember that some general -I can't recall who- said that it's best to let your enemy a way out, specially to the stubborn one: they will take the chance to retreat; thus you will win three battles in one: will win the battlefield, will spare your men of casualties, and your enemy will be denied of a model of heroism to follow (or something like that).

Lasts stands are the stuff of legend. Inspiring tales for your own people. Somehow, even if the lose the war in the end, the last stand serves as a bright spot; something to be proud of. It will be retold time and time again, adding things that never happened or, if happened, at the moment was different, until the tale won't be nothing real but a moral story.

A good point about 'who is left to tell the tale?'. It seems a disporporationate number of Last Stands happened in the colonial era (presumably because there was little point trying to surrender) and thus the last few witnesses of these epic actions were the 'native' forces. Alas, few of these had any sort of written record and therefore their histories of Last Stands risk having developed into something akin to folk tales.
That said, the Zulus were very respectful in their rememberances of Isandlwana, telling of the bravery of the 'Red Men' and including plenty of details of (eg) the Last Stand of Younghusband's company on the slopes of the mountain which dominates the battlefield.
The Matabele were similarly impressed by the bravery of Wilson's men at the Shangani. It was from the Matabele that the story of the last few men singing the National Anthem comes – the Matabele witnesses were not sure what the song was, but they told of Wilson's men singing a song 'like the white men sing in church'. I suppose it could have been 'Amazing Grace' but the Victorians assumed that it must have been 'God Save the Queen'.

Regarding the question of 'how do we know what happened', it is often the case that the attacker recorded the events or that some of the defenders escaped or were wounded and captured to tell the tale. In the case of my Indian Para example above, the story was found in a Japanese Colonel's diary, which was found on the colonel's body at Kohima.

There are two instances of Victoria Crosses being awarded on the basis of the testimony of an enemy – one was a naval encounter (I'm sorry to say that I don't know which) and the other was regarding the attack on a U-Boat by a flying boat crew who repeatedly pressed home the attack, despite being on fire.

"But even with that definition Thrmplylae does not make the top of the list – the Greeks had chosen the very best defensive position in all of Greece, where the Persians could only fight with equal numbers…"

So Aloysius insists only not-very-bright people qualify for his personal definition of a last stand. Quaint.

Western civilisation has evolved from Greek roots. It would have been very different if the Persian empire had conquered the Greek city states.

Thermopylae not only qualifies as a "last stand" it qualifies as one of the most monumentally important last stands in the history of civilization.
The Spartans (and the Thespians) easily get my vote.

I included Beaverford with Jervis Bay because they were sunk in the same action.

I suspect that having been caught the Beaverford started firing since if you're going to be sunk anyway you might at the very least try to do something. Sheer bloody-mindedness if you like.

AMC didn't stand up well to regular warships but I've gamed the RMS Jervis Bay against the raider 'Atlantis' and that was an even fight.

This should have been cross posted to TMP Polls!

Still no love for Roland and his horn???

There was a C19th siege akin to the Alamo on Crete in the later C19th. Greek rebels holed up in a monastery & fought the Turks off for a prolonged period. When the Turks at last overan them the last defenders held until the building was packed with the enemy & blew the magazine

Trying to remember the name – Arkadi?

In Bryan Perrett's LAST STAND: FAMOUS BATTLES AGAINST THE ODDS the chapters are:

Old Guard at waterloo, Alamo, Camerone, Big Horn, Isandlwana & rorkes drift, various artillery actions 14-18, Wake Atoll, Outpost Snipe, Sid Nisir, Betio (Tarawa Atoll) Admin Box [Burma] Arnhem Bridge, The Imjin

Remembering:
The fort on Malta the Turks took
The Storming of the US Embassy in Saigon
The Libyan embassy, London (From the terrorist POV)

I know some will not agree with this, but Chosin Reservior and the escape of the US X Corp. While this was mainly rearguard action while retreating. There were many squads, platoons and individual men, that had their last stand. This allowed the X Corp (1st Marine Div included) to escape to fight another day. If they don't get away, Korea falls? There you go…what if scenarios.

I think that almost any siege that 'went the distance' could qualify!

"I included Beaverford with Jervis Bay because they were sunk in the same action.

I suspect that having been caught the Beaverford started firing since if you're going to be sunk anyway you might at the very least try to do something. Sheer bloody-mindedness if you like.

AMC didn't stand up well to regular warships but I've gamed the RMS Jervis Bay against the raider 'Atlantis' and that was an even fight."

The SS Beaverford turned towards the Scheer, deliberately. Other surviving ships reported it later, and this was also acknowledged by the Scheer. Quite a difficult manoevre, I'd have thought, turning towards an enemy vessel, but trying to keep a line of fire clear from one's poop to the enemy!
I knew one of the Engineer Officers on the former RMS Alcantara, who became a Sub-Lieutenant RNR overnight when she became HMAC, or HMS, Alcantara, and who subsequently served on her when she fought an action with the German surface raider "Thor". The more modern German guns considerably outranged Alcantara's, and had superior fire control.

Many thanks for your kindly words Mr. BullDog69.

There are so many histories about Central and SouthAmerica wars that people of others Continents never hear!.

I had the fortune to travel to many contries, lived in some of them and I know pretty well all the SouthAmerica ones.
In all of them I had bought local history books (because you can not imagine how the same history changes in each country) and compare notes, testimonies, etc.

No doubt, that here in the far South the most terrible of all with many combats as I had put here was the "Triple Aliance War".
Imagin only that, for example, the wole Uruguayan Army was wipped off in one Battle called "Curupaity".
They were 7 thousand strong and at the end of the atack of that strong fortress, they only remain 1200 wounded and 300 on their own foot.

Amicalement
Armand

"So Aloysius insists only not-very-bright people qualify for his personal definition of a last stand. Quaint"

It would have been nice if you had posted something that had a logical connection to my post instead of that BS.

My definition had nothing to do with the nature of the position – it was to do with the nature of the action – a rearguard is not a last stand IMO, regardless of the position.

By the end of the war, if I remember correctly, 90% of the adult male population of Paraguay were dead.
Paraguay was so poor that, as war threatened, they bought the old cannon sunk into the pavements as bollards from Montevideo and Buenos Aires, paying scrap value for them, then refurbishing them to use as artillery.
eg. link
You'll need to scroll a long way down.

More:
link

link

Can I ask what it is that people find annoying about 'excessive cross posting'? I've seen this mentioned in several discussions and I've never really understood the problem. When I started this thread, I reasoned that Last Stands had occured throughout history, and therefore it would be a little illogical to only post it in (eg) the 'Early 20th Century Discussion Message Board'. Can someone explain the issue that some have about cross-posting?

There is a point why have the Wargaming in General board – you can post there all of the topics that are not restricted to certain periods.

It is a very nice place, and I visit it frequently to read interesting general discussions.

However, I also frequent other period-specific sections of TMP, checking to see if there are new interesting threads pertaining to this period. Thus, when I go to the Medieval period section, I expect to be able to concentrate on sorting out the most recent actually medieval discussions – instead of having to trawl through lots of cross-posted stuff that does not have a whole lot to do with the jolly old Middle Ages.

Monsieur Chouan:

Even the Paraguayan history books said that "only" the 62% of the male population had dead at that War. The 42% of the women too.
The problem was that the "men" of that 38% were mostly boys up to 14 to 15 years old. Very few (5%) were old from 65 to 80 years old.
So, the goberment allowed by law that each "man" can had childrens with any women they want and the state would paid their food and cloth.
Because of that, there are so many "relatives" in this country. Mostly of them had an original father for wathever class they belong.
Many women cross the border to they neighbourhood countries to be pregnant.
Many more with soldiers, BUT… not with Brasilian soldiers because mostly of them were black ex-slaves and in Paraguay there are not a single black citizen.(As in Argentina).

In that Era, if you had a low administrative job in Paraguay, you can managed with 8 to 12 differente women and had childres with them without any responsability from your part. You only had to give them your last name.

About the Paraguayan artillery, they not need to buy any cannon because they had the only factory in South America.
Paraguay, before the war, was the nb 1 country in science, economy and army. They made all their weapons because their lider (Solano Lopez)had import all the knowledge and machines from Europe.
They even had the first raillroad in SouthAmerica (still in function!).
For their part, their enemies, had to buy war material in many countries.
That's one of the reasons because when the war began, the Paraguayan forces cut to pieces all their enemies and took a great porcion of territory of the three countries.
pardon, a mistake, really, they had not taken any Argentine terrain, they only atack a Port and cross thought argentine soil to atack the Brasilians and uruguayans armies.
They never want war with us, but they violated the International law and we declared war against them.

Thanks for your interest.
Amicalement
Armand

Armand

I think you've made an excellent contribution to this discussion – I was very keen to hear about 'military epics' from all over the world, and to learn what different cultures consider to be famous Last Stands.
Similarly, I have the pleasure to work with a Brasillian gentleman who is a history buff and who I thoroughly enjoy chatting to, as he always has a different take on matters, and sees them through different eyes. I think you are right in that, to Brits and Americans, South America is almost a 'forgotten continent' in terms of military history – I think it's fair to say that not many of us know anything about it.

Griefbringer

Thanks for that, but I still fail to see the big problem. I would have said that the question of Last Stands is pertinant to the Medieval period, so I think it was worth cross-posting it there. If, for example, I had cross-posted something about Tiger Tanks to the Ancients board, then I would take your point, but I didn't.
The 'wargaming in general' board is fair enough, but in truth, this is not really a debate about wargaming, and I wanted to try and get as broad a cross-section of input as possible. I would suspect that most people who come on TMP do so to pass the time and dip into different subjects, rather than feeling any sense of urgency or desperate need save time by not opening a thread which may prove not to be of interest to them. However, if I have wasted anyone's time, then I apologise.

Re. rear guard actions not counting as Last Stands.

I would have to disagree on this front. I would suggest that most Last Stands occur because a portion of an army sacrifices themselves for the greater good – though often they may not get a choice!
If (eg) a company is left behind to allow the rest of the battalion to escape, and it fights a valiant, heroic action leading to high casualties or utter destruction, then it would seem rather churlish not to celebrate this as a Last Stand.
But I am happy to agree to disagree.

Aloysius,
I have directly quoted from your post. If you consider that directly quoting you has, as you say, no "logical connection" to your post I am at a loss to understand what on earth your post actually means.

Cooper Steve,
The monastery on Crete is indeed called Arkadi ( or Arkadiou) and evidence of the two-day siege by Turkish troops is plain to see – bullet holes and cannon-balls. It was a centre of resistance during the 1866 rising against Turkish rule and when the Turks finally broke in the Abbot ordered the barrels of gunpowder, hidden in the Monastery wine cellar, to be torched. Aptly, the slogan of Cretan resistance was "Freedom or Death".

I know it's small potatoes compared to the titantic struggles already listed, but I have long been moved by the heroic stand of Randy Shughart and Gary Gordon from C Squadron, 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta on 3 October 1993 during the Battle of Mogadishu. They volunteered to defend Mike Durant, injured in his chopper, knowing there was little chance of survival.

Mark

Thanks Wounded Knee- I had a web page on Arkadi bookmarked once, I'd love to visit. pleased to hear there is still a visible site. I gather the death toll of Turks was pretty impressive? Maybe they should have tried a similar trick at the Alamo?

BF Mark,

Very good example although I tend to think of that as out-and-out sacrifice, because at least in my definition of 'last stand' it's not automatically presumed to be suicidal.

Thermopylae is clearly #1 and the Alamo #2. How do I know? because these are the two battles that run away with coverage in books and, for the modern age, on the history and military channels.

The Japanese must account for thousands of incidents, given their neuroses around surrendering?

Old Bear- does Alamo really get more attention than Custer? Reckon they must level peg surely?

Good point, Steve. I reckon that relegates the Alamo to third place!

Be interesting to see how aware today's kids are of such incidents. Growing up in the 70s on Ladybird Books, How&Why books & Look & Learn magazine you heard the gist of things like Thermopylae, Bighorn, Alamo etc. Can't imagine where current youth would be exposed to such things…