"History's greatest Last Stand?" Topic

I'm not entirely sure if Last Stands make the best of wargames, but there is something magnificent about them. I would be fascinated to learn what the great minds of TMP consider to the greatest / most heroic / noteworthy Last Stand in military history?

Here are a few that sprung to mind:

Isandlwana
Major Wilson and the Shangani Patrol
Custer at the Little Big Horn
Gordon at Khartoum
The Alamo
The Glorious Gloucesters
Arnhem

Alas, these are very Anglo/American-centric, so I would be interested to learn of other less-well-known ones from other nations / armies?

Thermopoly.
Rorkes Drift
Maiwand

Masada

Well, I'd exclude the Alamo because it was unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives.

Frosts battalion at Arnhem bridge. I tend to exclude the rest of the division as they weren't overrun, but withdrew.

The defence of Brest-Litovsk.

How could I forget!

The 44th at Gandamak.

Extra Crispy

The same might be said for several of the others…

Wake Island

Bataan

If a naval 'Last Stand' is possible, how about HMS Revenge under Sir Richard Grenville?

Dien Bien Phu.

Thermopoly – because:

1. the choice of position was inspired – generalship.
2. the Spartans knew they were sacrificing themselves (for other Greeks – that they dispised!) early on and still stayed in position for the 'cause'.
3. the Spartans were, without doubt, the best troops in the world at that time, possibly the best troops the world had ever seen.
4. it is one of the few last stands (I can't think of another) that made world what it is. It preserved western civilisation. Without it the world would be very different.
5. because of 4 above, it is the most famous last stand in WORLD history as opposed to last stands better known by fellow countrymen (Rorkes Drift UK, The Alamo US, etc.)

It would make a rubbish game though.

Can Rorkes Drift really be considered a Last Stand? Heroic, magnificent and amazing, but a successful defensive action, rather than a Last Stand, surely?

Mt. Hei: The Warrior Monks vs. the Oda Samurai. I don't know if Bastogne fits in to this, but it is note worthy.

Yes, a last stand usually involves the defenders being wiped out.

If we are allowed naval, then HMS Jervis Bay.

Extra Crispy, heard this line once in a military TV serial from an old veteran. "There is a very thin line between bravery and stupidity"

The question is, which is greater, the last stand that suceeds or the one that fails?

For a successful last ditch stand, the Battle of Britain has to be right up there, or Malta.

FreddBloggs

I think you make a good point, though I had always considered that for something to be a Last Stand, it had to be unsuccessful! But I am not entirely sure of the definition, so I shall not argue!

Thermopylae surely. They knew before they set out that it was probably a suicide mission to gain time for the rest of the Greek states to get their act together. So even though they all died, they did succeed in their purpose. Too many last stands were pointless losses of life due to pride, stubborness or ignorance. This one actually made a difference.

Thermopylae for me too.

Me, I always considered a last stand to be where fighting against the odds was your only option, you fought and maybe lived or you died/were captured/lost as the only alternative.

HMS Jervis Bay? How about the SS Beaverford?

Was Bataan as last stand? I thought that they surrendered.

I was wondering about Wake Island myself…

How about Camerone (sp)?

I'd have to give my vote to Thermopylae.

Imphal

Pat

How about any Japanese occupied island that the U.S. invaded?

If we consider heroic defenses as last stand-ins, how about Peking during the Boxer Rebellion, or Leningrad during WWII, or the siege of Constantople(sp, or the lost battalion in WWI during the battle of bellue(sp) woods. There are way to many to count.

Does Roukes Drift count? to me a last stand must be troops, making a final stand before being wiped out. If they win and survive then it's not a last stand. They can carry on fighting.

Little Bighorn
Gandamak
Isandwala
Thermopalyae

Mes ami Essayon, c'est vrai

Camerone!

Vive la morte
Vive la guerre
Vive la Legion Etranger

"Well, I'd exclude the Alamo because it was unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives."

I cannot agree with Mark. (Nice pic, btw.)

Santa Anna arrives months before he's expected. The Texians run into their fort and close the gate. And send out lots of letters yelling for help. They didn't go there to fight to the death. It was an armory (18+ cannons, a couple of tons of gunpowder) and a rallying point. And the outcome (San Jacinto) may have been to some extenta consequence of their delay of SA's advance and the casualties he took.

Should SA have screened it and pressed on? Perhaps, but the grass wasn't growing yet, his army was exhausted by their winter march.

Even with 20/20 hindsight, I'd like to see the case made that it was "unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives."

I don't think History is making a last stand; it's going out with a whimper, instead.
-Kle.

Hong Kong
50th Indian Para Brigade at Sangshak
Kohima (possibly unique, in that both the British/Indian forces AND the Japanese fought desperate last-stands at that battle).
1st Polish Armoured Division at Mont Ormel

Re what constitutes a 'last stand' – I think you can also include those where the defenders had reached a point where they honestly believed all hope had gone, even if the situation recovered afterwards (Kohima and Mont Ormel being examples) or if significant numbers of the defenders did manage to break out in small groups at the end (such as Arnhem and Sangshak).

Thermopylae

KGL under Major Baring at La Haie Sainte at Waterloo

Maybe not the greatest but: The three legions in the Teutoburgwald,

For a non anglocentric one in terms of the combatants, although anglocentric in terms of being in what was at the time a British colony I will wave up a section of the 1st Malay Brigade (7th Platoon, C Company) on Bukit Chandu at the Battle of Pasir Panjang.

Unfortunately it had little strategic significance in terms of the war and the defence of Singapore – but it does show everything you want in a Last Stand – hopeless situation, outnumbered heavily, low on supplies – but still having the tenacity to continue fighting.

I think it is safe to assume that the Brits at Rorkes Drift thought it was going to be a last stand until their first salvo. Thereafter, I believe it was something of a turkey shoot. It was a bad example used to make the arguement for Thermopylae above ( – the spelling in that post will teach me to trust my instinct rather than previous posts).

"Well, I'd exclude the Alamo because it was unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives."

I have to disagree with this anaylsis also.
None of the Texians intended this to be a last stand situation that they eventually found themselves in. Santa Anna arrived much sooner then anticipated. The foolish aspect perhaps was how they underrated Santa Anna's determination.

While I agree that Thermopylae is the best of the last stands, here are a couple more to throw into the mix:

51st Highland Division at St Valerie – no "miracle of Dunkirk" for them.

BEF in 1914. The Last Stand of the Old Contemptibles – if they had been less brave, WWI might have ended before the leaves fell.

Battle of Serenity Valley – end of the Browncoats

Most of the other ones, while they involve a lot of personal acts of bravery, seem to me to be the result of foolishness on the part of the generals who underestimated their enemy and then let their soldiers pay the price – certainly feel that way about Isandlwana, Little Bighorn, Dien Bien Phu, Hong Kong 1941, Gandamak and Maiwand.

As for the "successful" last stand – if it succeeds, it isn't really a last stand, is it?

I would exclude Arnhem for the same reason that EC excludes the Alamo – unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives – all to salve Monty's ego.

Jervis Bay is a good one from a naval perspective but I'd prefer HMS Gloworm v Hipper or USS Johnston at Leyte Gulf.

Should'nt everyone be dead after a 'last stand' ?
if so… La Legion at Camerone, Soviet defenders of Brest, Thermopylae, Japanese at Okinawa, Gauls at Alesia,and (not quite all dead – but mostly but just take the fort St Elmo bit) Knights of St John at Valletta, Panfilov Guardsmen at Dubekosovo(outside Moscow)in 1941. etc

For a non-Anglocentric one, how about St. Jacob en Birs, 1444.

I would exclude Arnhem for the same reason that EC excludes the Alamo – unnecessary, foolish and a complete waste of those lives – all to salve Monty's ego.

Really? Not a bold attempt to shorten the war and save countless lives then?

Newcastle's Whitecoats at Marston Moor?

Gandamak. It inspired a classic painting that epitomizes the meaning of a "last stand".

Little Big Horn would be a close second.

Masada--They all died before being wiped out,
The Warsaw Ghetto 43--Truly heroic stand against impossible odds and they took quite a few of the scum with them!!
The Warsaw Uprising 44--Same as above--Doomed but heroic..
The Guides defence of the Embassy in Kabul..
2nd Battalion the Paras at Arnhem…So so so close..
Also the Turkish defenders at Gallipoli..Kemal Ataturk said to them--"You are dead but you have to fight"

"Jervis Bay is a good one from a naval perspective but I'd prefer HMS Gloworm v Hipper or USS Johnston at Leyte Gulf."

May I ask why?

Roncesvales – Maybe foolish (hardheaded pride?) but sung about for centuries!

The Bismarcks final Hours – she took a pounding.

The Fall of Constantinople –

The Fall of Jerusalem (after Hattin) – Though they did get away. Maybe the Fall of Jerusalem to the First Crusade would be better since they all died but formed a rallying cry to their people.
(Interesting, my western mind never saw this as a last stand before, but as a great and bold victory for Christendom. One man's Last Stand is another man's Heroic Triumph!)

LOL. When I read Deucey's post (above) I misread the bit about THE Bismark. I did not read the THE; I got an image of a fat old man, having a heart attack.