"Bonaparte, King of Britain" Topic

Fascinating!

*****
One of the strangest incidents concerning Napoleon's political illegitimacy involved the death of Princess Charlotte, the heiress presumptive to the British throne. Her death in childbirth in November 1817 meant that after George III's sons, none of whom had legitimate heirs (Victoria wouldn't be born until 1819), the line of succession would pass to the Continental branches of the family. Third in line to the throne was Princess Catherine of Württemberg, the third cousin to Princess Charlotte and wife of Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's brother. If Catherine's two cousins died without issue, Catherine and Jerome's son would wear the British crown, and a Bonaparte would be the legitimate king of Britain. Radicals salivated at the thought of their former legitimist persecutors having to bend their knees in honor of a nephew of the "Corsican upstart."

So? It didn't happen though, did it? Or am I missing something?

Here's a list of George III's kids

(1) George Augustus Frederick, Prince of Wales KING GEORGE IV (1762-1830) m. Caroline of Brunswick.

Issue:-

(i) Princess Charlotte Augusta of Wales (1796-1817)

(2) Frederick Augustus, Duke of York (1763-1827) m. Fredericka of Prussia

No issue

(3)William Henry, Duke of Clarence KING WILLIAM IV (1765-1837) m. Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen.

Issue:-

(i) Princess Charlotte Augusta Louisa (b. & d. 1819)

(ii) Princess Elizabeth Georgina Adelaide (1820-21)

(4) Charlotte Augusta Matilda, Princess Royal (1766-1828) m. Frederick I of Wurtemburg.

No issue

(5) Edward Augustus, Duke of Kent (1767-1820) m. Victoria Mary of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfield.

Issue:-

(i) Alexandrina Victoria of Kent. QUEEN VICTORIA (1818-1901) m. Albert of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

(6) Princess Augusta Sophia (1768-1840)

No issue

(7) Princess Elizabeth (1770-1840) m. Frederick of Hesse-Homberg

No issue

(8) Ernest Augustus, Duke of Cumberland KING ERNEST OF HANOVER (1771-1851) m, Fredericka of Mecklenberg-Strelitz.

Issue :-

(i) KING GEORGE V OF HANOVER

(9) Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex (173-1843) m.(1) Lady Augusta Murray (2) Lady Cecilia Letitia Buggin.

Issue by (1) :-

(i) Augustus Frederick d'Este (1794-1848)

(ii) Augusta Emma d'Este (1801-66)

(10)Adolphus Frederick, Duke of Cambridge (1774-1850) m. Augusta of Hesse-Cassel.

Issue:-

(i) George, Duke of Cambridge (1819-1904)

(ii) Princess Augusta of Cambridge (1833-1927)

(iii) Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge (1837-1897)

(11) Mary (1776-1857) m. William Frederick, Duke of Gloucester of Edinburgh

(12) Princess Sophia of the United kingdom (1777-1848) never married

(13)Prince Octavius of the United Kingdom (1779-1786) died in infancy

(14) Prince Alfred of the United Kingdom (1780-82) died in infancy

(15) Princess Amelia of the United Kingdom (1783-1810) died in infancy

I make that six legitimate primary male heirs still extant in 1817.

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I'm probably related to the Kings of Tara, I don't think the Dáil are too bothered about that either.

<Warning! Harmless sarcasm alert!>

"So? It didn't happen though, did it? Or am I missing something?"

Perhaps the "fascinating" part? Without knowing you better, within this context I can only suggest "a sense of historical irony"?

"I'm probably related to the Kings of Tara, I don't think the Dáil are too bothered about that either."

Too true, and I'm likely related to any number of bloody-handed reaver-kings of the north (or their scullions). However, it's distinctly possible that the potential impact of our bloodline associations would not be as great as that of Napoleon's. It's not a fair world, but there you have it.

;)

Perhaps the "fascinating" part? Without knowing you better, within this context I can only suggest "a sense of historical irony"?

What's "fascinating" about a completely unlikely scenario? Your post only smacks of more wish-fulfilment over Boney and his progeny. Anyway 'British' monarchy was long gone, we were (and are) ruled by a bunch of Germans, and before them, Dutch :)

EDIT: my cut-and-paste evidently didn't paste the reference for the quote above – it's from a review of Dr. Stuart Semmel's book "Napoleon and the British" – a history of British opinion on Napoleon and his line.

"What's "fascinating" about a completely unlikely scenario?"

Err … the contemplation of the "completely unlikely" – but nevertheless possible – for one's own amusement? I think I sense a difference in the valuation of that imaginative venture on our two parts, however. I'm afraid as an archaeologist it's all I'm often left with – curses on those mute stones!

"Your post only smacks of more wish-fulfilment over Boney and his progeny."

Well, I suppose if you squint really hard while peering through the cloth of a battered flag of the Old Guard you could see it that way. I can only assure you that it was posted out of a sense of bemusement rather than any latent conspiratorial Bonapartism (which I only tried once when I was younger, and even then I didn't inhale, and never really enjoyed it, honest).

"Anyway 'British' monarchy was long gone, we were (and are) ruled by a bunch of Germans, and before them, Dutch."

And as a Dutchman and German(by descent) I can applaud that sensible evolution, however much the current descendants of that fortunate family of Hanoverians have strayed from their honest sausage-eating roots.

;)

Having a French monarchy may have simplified 19th century politics anyway. It's not as though we had a natural rapport with Vicky's offspring is it? Unless you count WWI as an unfortunate aberration :)

"natural rapport" – LOL !
:-)

The Bonaparte who would be this "potential" candidate for the British throne was Plon-Plon, by the way – or more formally, Napoléon-Joseph-Charles-Paul Bonaparte, prince Français, comte de Meudon, comte de Moncalieri ad personam.

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Frayer

@ The Artist formerly known as C______ S___:-

1) In what way is the present monarch German? Her father was born in England, as was her paternal grandfather, her paternal great-grandmother (Victoria) and at least one of her great-great-grandparents; her mother was Scottish and her maternal grandparents and their ancestors were all Scots or Irish. She is therefore at least 50% British and, if she were an ordinary citizen it might even be considered racist to call her anything else.

2) In what way is the present monarch Dutch, since William III and Mary II had no issue?

<<Having a French monarchy may have simplified 19th century politics anyway.>>

Well, arguably we had a "French" monarchy from 1066 to 1485 (even if you don't accept the Normans as French, they were legally subject to the French monarch); there was also a French king (one of the early Philips) crowned king at some point in the middle ages (just after John died?), but who appears to have been expunged from the record books.

*sigh* Here we go again. The Attack of the Pedants.

1) In what way is the present monarch German?

The House of Windsor changed its name from Saxe-Coburg und Gotha in 1917. That was Prince Albert's family, Victoria was the last of the Hannoverians.

They're all German royal houses. Elizabeth may not be German, but the House of Windsor is. Do you see?

2) In what way is the present monarch Dutch, since William III and Mary II had no issue?

The 'and before them, Dutch' was what we smart-arses call a "clue". Allow me to paraphrase – and before the German monarchy we had a Dutch monarchy. Do you see?

Well, arguably we had a "French" monarchy from 1066 to 1485

Refer to your first point. Compare and contrast.

Well, as an American who has lived a good portion of his life in Europe, I always assumed the cracks about the "German" UK monarchy were akin to the jokes about American "cowboys" … we all know that the reality has faded away generations ago, but it makes for a memorable cultural anecdote. Yes, the cowboy thing gets under my skin sometimes, too, but as we say in street-ball, No Harm, No Foul. ;)

CATenWolde,

Or when a European or Eurasian calls a guy from Alabama a "Yankee" ?

I never did get this "king", "queen" "royal house" stuff. It always makes me recall the line from Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail – "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

:-)

Frayer
(also an American, and too often traveling away from his homeland)

Annodyne username is wrong.

The monarchy is British.

As pointed out the family hasn't been German for over a century, nor has it had a single German member since Prince Albert died.

If extended to non Caucasian British people this kind of language is deemed racist in this country.

I see no reason to make an exception for the monarchy. How long does a family have to be in the UK to be deemed British?

Being more pedantic we had one Dutch monarch, William,. After him we had Mary on her own and Anne who were both decidedly English.

So dear old Kawasaki/ Connard Sage/ Scunthorpe/ Annodyne Username shows himself to be prejudiced and crap at history. Not bad for one posting.

Hush. I was hoping to catch a few more. You've gone and kicked my keepnet away

<<Anyway 'British' monarchy was long gone, we were (and are) ruled by a bunch of Germans, and before them, Dutch.>>

<<They're all German royal houses. Elizabeth may not be German, but the House of Windsor is.>>

What does their surname have to do with it? If we "are" ruled by a "bunch of Germans" still, then Elizabeth II cannot be British; so one or other of your statements must be incorrect. You choose.

But yes, you are correct; I did mis-read the bit about the Dutch. How…..er, what's the word?…..pedantic, of you to notice.

<<Yes, the cowboy thing gets under my skin sometimes, too, but as we say in street-ball, No Harm, No Foul. ;)>>

Among ordinary people, yes; however, you tend to find that the people who make cracks about the monarch being German are often the first to scream "Racism!" if someone suggests that certain ethnic groups – however recently arrived – are not really British.

(I'm not suggesting Annodyne Username is one of those.)

It's great to be back, one really does miss the carp* on here :)

I'm not going to get into politics and 'racism' though, there's only one place that leads to.

*not a misspelling

Fascinating family though – the Bonapartes in the 19th century seem to have included a couple of decent scientists, a cardinal and several other people who made their mark.

And of course, one was repsonsible for setting on the FBI on the early 20th century.

Are they still going?

Yep.

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Britain has had kings and queens from many nations
Angles, Saxons, Danes, Normans, Welsh, Scottish Dutch Hanoverian a multi-national assortment

And I haven't even bothered with all the Royal houses that Henry VIII married into!

But what of the Irish!

Anyway, do you think that all these Stuarts, Napoleons, Bourbons and such ever get together for a summer holiday?

"Angles, Saxons, Danes, Normans, Welsh, Scottish, Dutch Hanoverian a multi-national assortment"

All except the Dutch and Hanoverian have (to a greater or lesser extent) been assimilated into Britain.

"It's not as though we had a natural rapport with Vicky's offspring is it? Unless you count WWI as an unfortunate aberration"

As a matter of fact, an unfortunate aberration is more or less exactly what Vicky's offspring saw it as, and tried to stop it getting out of hand in the Summer of 1914 – alas to no avail! Before that year, they used to meet regularly for family occasions and holidays, and got on no worse than any large clan…

I take it that the Bonaparte chappie wasn't Catholic?

I take it that the Bonaparte chappie wasn't Catholic?

Well, he was and he wasn't.

Call it opportunistic religiousness if you will

He was also a Muslim at one point.

Bangorstu wrote:
"Being more pedantic we had one Dutch monarch, William,. After him we had Mary on her own and Anne who were both decidedly English.

So dear old Kawasaki/ Connard Sage/ Scunthorpe/ Annodyne Username shows himself to be prejudiced and crap at history. Not bad for one posting."

In fact, Mary II predeceased her husband and joint monarch William III, wh thereafter ruled alone until his death.

"How long does a family have to be in the UK to be deemed British?"

To quote the Duke Of Wellington, in reply to the suggestion that, having been born in Dublin, he was an Irishman:
"The fact a man was born in a stable does not make him a horse!"

<<"How long does a family have to be in the UK to be deemed British?"

To quote the Duke Of Wellington, in reply to the suggestion that, having been born in Dublin, he was an Irishman:
"The fact a man was born in a stable does not make him a horse!">>

You are confusing two different concepts – nationality by birth and nationality by residence.

In any case, there is no evidence that the Duke himself ever said it – as has been pointed out several times on TMP already this year. If it was ever said, it was more likely to have been by someone else, either to discredit him in the eyes of the Irish public (Daniel O'Connell being a prime suspect here), or to boost his image in the eyes of the British public.

Bangorstu:

Being more pedantic we had one Dutch monarch, William,. After him we had Mary on her own …

I can't believe you've said that again. It's a bit rich to call another poster crap at history at the same time as repeating a basic error which was addressed just a few weeks ago.
TMP link
Having incorrectly stated that

Mary was James' sister, not daughter if my memory serves.

and been corrected, you went on to say

Mary certainly was not irrelvent. For a start she was next in line to the throne. For second she was specifically coronated as joint ruler with William – as can be seen by the fact she continued to rule solely after his death.

Consorts don't get to do that.

And I replied

Sorry Bangorstu, but your memory must be playing tricks again. It was the other way round, William outlived Mary by some 7 years. Mary died in December 1694 and William continued to rule until his death in March 1702.

Once again I refer you the the William and Mary page on the British Monarchy official website – it's quite good for getting rid of blind spots ;o)
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