"Do details matter, really?" Topic

Watched a documentary on the Alamo earlier this week. Several times, they made a point to mention the main entrance was actually set back 90 feet from the compound instead of flush against like on some movie set. They also mentioned that there's a question as to if the Mexicans broke through this gate, flooded the compounded, walked up to the steps and captured a cannon OR if they scaled the corner, took the gun, then opened the gate.

My question, do these details really matter to the understanding of the Alamo, the impact it had on the events of the time, and how those events affect us today. Do they really matter?

Granted, if you're trying to figure out something more sticky like the JFK assasination where there's a lot of doubt. You got to have the details to figure out what happened. Wihtout knowing what, you can't figure out who, and if you don't know who then you don't know anything. So clearly, details are important in disputed cases.

So does the color of facings, the inventor of the bricole, the color on the tip of the bomb that sunk the Arizona, … really matter?

Very Rarely.

Lee attacked at Gettysburg but failed to secure a victory and retreated. To understand American History, that's about all you need on Gettysburg.

"Lee attacked at Gettysburg but failed to secure a victory and retreated. To understand American History, that's about all you need on Gettysburg."

To understand how and why Lee failed at Gettysburg, you need a whole lot more.

Besides, Lee took Gettysburg.
He failed to take Cemetery Ridge and retreated.
Its all in the details. :-)

Details matter to wargamers. Otherwise you're just left rolling opposing dice.

I guess it depends under what historical theory you are looking back on – social history, Marxist theory, military history, feminist theory, etc.

The who, what, why and how change depending on the theory behind it.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

In the great cosmic scheme the details do not really matter, but why stop at history? Why should any movie or novel worry about details? Who cares how Imperial Stormtroopers are costumed? Why not just have a bunch of guys in white sweaters brandishing sticks disembarking from a large cardboard box? Just use your imagination and the white sweater stormtroopers are arrayed in full armor.
Why did Tolkien bother with any detail? Pare the Lord of the Rings trilogy down to a paragraph without all that useless detail.

I for one could have lived with less of JRR's poetry…

Depends upon the granularity of your question or gaming. If you are fighting out a campaign, subtle orbat disputes are largely immaterial (one blob of guys with sticks is fairly similar to another). If you interest is recreating a battle, then the size and elan of the blobs assumes more importance.

Depends which butterflies you kill when you travel into the past.

To me, absolutely. I live for details.

It matters to the extent that you want it to.
For example, if you have painted the 63rd Regiment of Foot as accurately as you can, what are you going to do if you want to do a battle where you need a regiment, but the 63rd wasn't there? Why, the completely "accurate" 63d foot becomes the 35th, of course.
I am NOT going to put off the Battle of Carroll's Crossroad until I get the 35th painted.

A! the Trees of Light, tall and shapely
gold and silver, more glorious than the sun,
than the moon more magical, o'er the meads of the Gods
their fragrant frith and flowerladen
gardens gleaming, once gladly shone.
In death they are darkened, they drop their leaves
from blackened branches bled by Morgoth
and Ungoliant the grim the Gloomweaver
In spider's form despair and shadow
a shuddering fear and shapless night
she weaves in a web of winding venom
that is black and breathless. Their branches fail,
Mirk goes marching, mists of blackness,
through the halls of the Mighty hushed and empty,
the gates of the Gods are in gloom mantled.

Lo! the Elves murmur mourning in anguish,
but no more shall be kindled the mirth of Côr
in the winding ways of their walled city,
towercrownëd Tûn, whose twinkling lamps
are drowned in darkness. The dim fingers
of fog come floating from the formless waste
and sunless seas. The sound of horns,
of horses' hooves hastening wildly
in hopeless hunt, they hear afar,
where the Gods in wrath those guilty ones
through mournful shadow, now mounting as a tide
o'er the Blissful Realm, in blind dismay
pursue unceasing. The city of the Elves
is thickly thronged. On threadlike stairs
carven of crystal countless torches
stare and twinkle, stain the twilight
and gleaming balusters of green beryl.
A vague rumour of rushing voices,
as myriads mount the marble paths,
there fills and troubles those fair places
wide ways of Tûn and walls of pearl.

Of the Three Kindreds to that clamorous throng
are none but the Gnomes in numbers drawn.
The Elves of Ing to the ancient halls
and starry gardens that stand and gleam
upon Timbrenting towering mountain
that day had climbed to the cloudy-domed
mansions of Manwë for mirth and song.
There Bredhil the Blessed the bluemantled,
the Lady of the heights as lovely as the snow
in lights gleaming of the legions of the stars,
the cold immortal Queen of mountains,
too fair and terrible too far and high
for mortal eyes, in Manwë's court
sat silently as the sang to her.

The Foam-riders, folk of waters,
Elves of the endless echoing beaches,
of the bays and grottoes and the blue lagoons,
of silver sands sown with moonlit,
starlit, sunlit, stones of crystal,
paleburning gems pearls and opals,
on their shining shingle, where now shadows groping
clutched their laughter, quenched in mourning
their mirth and wonder, in amaze wandered
under cliffs grown cold calling dimly,
or in shrouded ships shuddering waited
for the light no more should be lit for ever.

But the Gnomes were numbered by name and kin,
marshalled and ordered in the mighty square
upon the crown of Côr. There cried aloud
the fierce son of Finn. Flaming torches
he held and whirled in his hands aloft,
those hands whose craft the hidden secret
knew, that none Gnome or mortal
hath matched or mastered in magic or in skill.
'Lo! slain is my sire by the sword of fiends,
his death he has drunk at the doors of his hall
and deep fastness, where darkly hidden
the Three were guarded, the things unmatched
that Gnome and Elf and the Nine Valar
recarve or rekindle by craft or magic,
not Fëanor Finn's son who fashioned them or yore --
the light is lost whence he lit them first,
the fate of Faërie hath found its hour

Thus the witless wisdom its reward hath earned
of the Gods' jealousy, who guard us here
to serve them, sing to them in our sweet cages,
to contrive them gems and jewelled trinkets,
their leisure to please with our loveliness,
while they waste and squander work of ages,
nor can Morgoth master in their mansions sitting
at countless councils. Now come ye all,
who have courage and hope! My call harken
to flight, to freedom in far places!
The woods of the world whise wide mansions
yet in darkness dream drowned in slumber,
the pathless plains and perilous shores
no moon yet shines on nor mounting dawn
in dew and daylight hath drenched for ever,
far better were these for bold footsteps
than gardens of the Gods gloom-encircled
with idleness filled and empty days.
Yea! though the light lit them and the loveliness
beyond heart's desire that hath held us slaves
here long and long. But that light is dead.
Our gems are gone, our jewels ravished;
and the Three, my Three, thrice-enchanted
globes of crystal by gleam undying
illumined, lit by living splendour
and all hues' essence, their eager flame --
Morgoth has them in his monstrous hold
my Silmarils. I swear here oaths,
unbreakable bonds to bind me ever,
by Timbrenting and the timeless halls
of Bredhil the Blessed that abides thereon --
may she hear and heed -- to hunt endlessly
unwearying unwavering through world and sea,
through leaguered lands, lonely mountains,
over fens and forest and the fearful snows,
till I find those fair ones, where the fate is hid
of the folk of Elfland and their fortune locked,
where alone now lies that light divine.'

Then his sons beside him, the seven kinsmen,
crafty Curufin, Celegorm the fair,
Damrod and Díriel and dark Cranthir,
Maglor the mighty, and Maidros tall
(the eldest, whose ardour yet more eager burnt
than his father's flame, than Fëanor's wrath;
him fate awaited with fell purpose),
these leapt with laughter their lord beside,
with linkëd hands there lightly took
the oath unbreakable; blood thereafter
it spilled like a sea and spent the swords
of endless armies, nor hath ended yet:

'Be he friend or foe or foul offspring
of Morgoth Bauglir, be he mortal dark
that in after days on earth shall dwell,
shall no law or love nor league of Gods,
no might nor mercy, not moveless fate,
defend him for ever from the fierce vengeance
of the sons of Fëanor, whoso seize or steal
or finding keep the fair enchanted
globes of crystal whose glory dies not,
the Silmarils. We have sworn for ever!'

Then a mighty murmuring was moved abroad
and the harkening host hailed them roaring:
'Let us go! yea go from the Gods for ever
on Morgoth's trail o'er the mountains of the world
to vengeance and victory! Your vows are ours!
_____________________

Without detail--without color, and emotion, and sense of place and time--nothing is worth experiencing.

However, I'll spare you the 2,715 lines of "Gawain and the Green Knight".

Allen

Just about everyone can grasp the big picture.
Thank goodness some dwell on the details, so that they are not lost to time, and some (such as me!) can obsess on them.

That's why you never get invited to any elf parties.

Elf maidens really like Elf poetry. Just sayin…

I'm waiting for the new volume of Unfinished Tales with JRR's early drafts of his poetry. Most start with "There was an Elf from Nantucket".

Allen needs a spanking…

I keep hearing a lot on the news about the Elfcare debate these days.

"Allen needs a spanking…"

I only deal with professionals.

I didn't say by who lol!

I for one could have lived with less of JRR's poetry…

So could I. But the rest of the descriptions, and much of the rest of the stories, were beautiful.

And there are other, better poets in the world.

To some, details matter. To others, they are unnecessary baggage. For me, it depends on what details we're talking about.

And I would certainly expect my doctor to pay attention to the details!

Yes, when he is putting my Pacemaker back together, I don't want any leftover parts.

There was a High Elf from Nantucket
Who carried silmarils in a bucket.

Depends on the Tactical or Strategic view

There once was a man from Bree
Who sowed his seeds by the sea

Eh, we all know where this can go…

So agree kyoteblue, plus I hear they're a bit "starfish" like in the sack.

Kyoteblue… hats. You're looking for the word 'hats'. Elm Maidens don't have very big hats.

socks?

Ears?
But, those ARE big.

If you don't appreciate Tolkien, then you are a worthless philistine, and mangy cur to boot!

"The sound of horns,
of horses' hooves hastening wildly
in hopeless hunt, they hear afar,
where the Gods in wrath those guilty ones
through mournful shadow, now mounting as a tide
o'er the Blissful Realm, in blind dismay
pursue unceasing."

That is us, in this post-9/11 world.

The level of detail required depends on the question you ask. If you're examining the Alamo, you're going to want to know a detail if it impacted the battle in some form. If the issue of the gate being set back 90 feet rather that flush to the wall impacted the way the fort was defended or affected how the Mexicans attacked, it's relevent.

Details matter sometimes, sometimes they don't. If trying to build a Hydrogen Bomb, details matter quite a bit. If comparing relative GDP growth between countries over 100 years, they don't, you just need the aggregated figures (which may involve some details about data collation and analysis of course).

Good models of real world events focus on an appropriate level of detail. 'Appropriate' will vary from one situation to another. Trying to include all the details is complex and difficult, generally requires the use of supercomputers, and even then, the outcome is only as good as your model in the first place. Predict the weather anyone?

Just because I can give multiple orgasms to the furniture just by sitting on it, doesn't mean that I'm not sick of this damn war: the blood, the noise, the endless poetry.

"I keep hearing a lot on the news about the Elfcare debate these days."

That's because they live for ing ever and just suck the funds dry with all their treatments.

NO. Too much detail can get in the way of a good game…

Kinda like history….

Our latest club motto is "R.D.G.C.: Not letting history get in the way of a good game…"

It all depends on your purpose and needs. Some will say yes and others no to all of your examples.

For example I am always looking for hard data on things like dress. So I may have to read pages before I find a paragraph on facings.

I am currently working on MTB boat scenarios for WW2. I found a hard to locate (in USA) book written shortly after the war. Plenty of 'come to life' narratives which I am having to read through to gain kernals of data that I can use.

Allen you're obscene (I always skip the poetry parts in JRR's books)….

Pare the Lord of the Rings trilogy down to a paragraph without all that useless detail.

This guy has to take something somewhere to destroy it and save the world. After a long and eventful journey he succeeds and everything turns out just fine.

Hmm. I think I prefer the original (but without the poems) :o)

No, I think you have it covered just fine…and I don't have to waste several days of my precious (no pun intended) life reading the pointy-eared drivel

kyoteblue:
Allegedly they're mere details on elfmaids anyway.
Egg

They matter as much as people think they matter. I couldn't care less about the details of football; the league tables, world cup winners, the offside rule, any of it. However, I recognise that there are people that do. Conversely, I do care about the details of lots of things. Bad science in films is something I really dislike (pardons can be made for space opera).

In the realm of miniatures, if someone wants to care about the exact shade of blue on the turnbacks of their grenadiers in a particular half-year period, then they can. On the other hand, if someone wants an army based on a romanticised view of history, then they can. I'm not going to stop them, unless they try and propagate misinformation.