"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

Why are you implying that I can't read, Steve?

Whether Mal's was offensive or note (I don't think he was), the subsequent accusations of "unbridled hate" and insinuations of mental illness are out of order. Full stop.

Allen

Allen, the offensive postings were pulled. I'm not sure you were able to read them before then. It has nothing to do with your reading comprehension. However, personally, I can't possibly see how they could be read or explained otherwise and unfortunately, the record has been purged. I've seen Mal over the years state bigoted things, normally jingoistic in nature, and then backpedal by stating that it's all in good fun, opinion and truth. Truth and opinion? Truth and good fun? Usually those three things are mutually exclusive. The same thing has happened here. I'm sure if you substituted any ethnic or religious group into his original statement, it would have had a similar effect.

Did I give two rubs about it? Not more than an audible guffaw. I don't care if people are bigots, it's none of my business. Just don't state it's not bigotry or make excuses for it by blaming others' sensitivities. It's like telling someone that they shouldn't be offended by a bigoted statement or "I'm not racist, my best friends are black."

Steve

Once again (and once again, NSFW):

YouTube link

By the way, I've never met a single soul who isn't capable of exhibiting bigotry in one form or another. Some rabbi once said something about he who is without sin or something like that, I think.

Allen

Allen wrote:

…..insinuations of mental illness…..

Oh please, hardly that. What I wrote was:

Life is too short to harbour a near pathological hatred for a company that makes toys.

I think that is good advice for anyone, myself included. Apart from that I guess we will just have to disagree. If you think my comment was the equivalent of "casting the first stone" then you have my apologies, Mal. However, I still stand behind my succinct comments of Oct, 29.

Ralph

I've read most of the comments and find them entertaining but I don't understand the visceral dislike of GW. I frequent the GW store in my area. I buy their paints and even the White Dwarf. There are a number of terrain pieces such as houses and such that I'm tempted to buy. I don't because they're too expensive. When I go in the people are very friendly to me even though they know I'm a historical gamer. I think they are kind of flattered. They have always taken the time to help me with my painting. And, I need all the help I can get. When I go in I see kids painting away enjoying their hobby. I look at the GW figures and they are excellent figures. Not my cup of tea but they look great.

The point is GW is no threat to me. Why should it be? GW is a company who wants to support their product line. There is no reason they should allow other aspects of the hobby compete with their business. The idea that they should be more altruistic is simply naive. I don't buy what I think is an overpriced product but others have no problem with it. If they enjoy it then I say "go forth my children and have fun". If they want to play non-GW fantasy, there are a number of very good non-GW fantasy figures and fantasy rules they can go to if they want. Fantasy, GW or non-GW seems to do quite well. They provide their gamers with excellent figures and accessories. But simply because they are not to my liking doesn't mean I'm threatened.

While I have never done any fantasy gaming (and probably never will) I enjoy seeing armies of well painted figures fighting over nice terrain. So, I welcome the GWers and other fantasy gamers. I intend to go over there. I will compliment nicely painted armies and try to pick up painting pointers. I will express my delight at well terrained tables and try to pick up pointers on how to improve my terrain building skills.

However, if they show up with OD blankets, scattered lichen, and paper roads I say hang em. Hang em often and hang em high. That'll teach em. See if they'll come back to one of our conventions.

Rich

I'm curious. Which do most people feels looks better, GW games, or tournament games (excluding FoW, that it)?

Historygamer, maybe that should be a new thread? Easier to read and get involved in a new thread with few posts than to try to post when there is so much written that you may have missed in an old lengthy thread.

When does the thread on attacking the dealers that stock things that are not historical, miniature, or gaming related start? That I am really looking forward to.

You could see this GW thing coming a mile away. We were talking about it 2 years ago when they were having sensing sessions (Which some people adamantly deny ever happened).

Actually, I think it is brilliant. They draw in the youngsters who are too intimidated to show up to the regular cons because they don't know anything about history but do play miniature games. They are exposed to historical games, as long as they can get into them to give it a shot (The ever increasing number of "No one under 16 without an adult" games is a whole different subject. I would not be in this hobby if that were the case when I started going to cons). They are also exposed to a dealer area where miniatures are not $12 USD a figure, look more like what you would expect, and paint up and play with a vast array of rules and paints not pushed by a single company.

Of course, all this could backfire. The dealers could all get together and simplify their rules to a uniform vanilla, charge $20 USD a figure, and start their own magazine to promote themselves. On second thought, I am against this whole thing. Why take the chance?

Frankly I think there should be a banner saying

HISTORICON WELCOMES
GAMES WORKSHOP
Warhamer
Warhammer 40,000
Lord of the Rings.

RICH

historygamer 01 Nov 2009 6:43 p.m. PST
NJH:

Your comparision is apples to watermellon. GW is a company, that promotes its own wares. Your suggestion that they should host FoW, etc, is like saying Ford should also show some GM products on their showroom floor. That is ridiculous. HMGSE has lots of different "car makers" at their cons.

*NJH: OK, let's accept your analysis at face value.

The following is pulled from the By Laws of HMGSE:

"The purpose of the Corporation is exclusively for educational and charitable purposes, including, for such purposes, the making of distributions to organizations that qualify as exempt organizations under Section 501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 (or the corresponding provision of any future United States Internal Revenue Law) and the running of educational programs promoting historical miniature gaming and military history."

How does the "GW is a company, that promotes its own wares." fit into that purpose?

HMGSE has no product, other than their conventions. Fantasy games already take place there. You can't be a little bit pregnant. Either you tolerate it, or you don't. Obviously the decision was made a long, long time ago to tolerate it. So, if they have the space, and get promotion for the convention from them, then why not try it?

*NJH: I don't care what any individual plays or hosts at a convention sponsored by any of the HMGS type organizations. My concern is having such an obviously non-historical hobby organization "that promotes its own wares" given an opportunity to do so at a venue, which is supposed to be for the enjoyment of historical miniatures. I'd have the same problem with Athearn setting up an HO scale RR layout and letting people run the trains. I'm a model train enthusiast, but Athearn as a company doesn't fit into the aforementioned Purpose of HMGSE. I'm not unaquainted with GW products, having run a Squat Army for a few years many, many years ago (I dearly loved my Thud Guns and Mole Mortars). The issue is how far the GW presence, not a person playing a GW game, but GW, strays from the Purpose of HMGSE.

Either you tolerate ahistorical stuff in the dealer room, the gaming space, etc, or you don't. They have, and they do. I'm not saying this is a decision I would make, but then again, I'm not on the board.

*NJH: I'm not on the board either, but I'd sell the vendor space to Historical Miniatures related vendors first then whatever was left over would go on a first come first serve basis. I'd also give those vendors with the longest history with HMGSE special consideration. However, as you note it's not our call either way.

Of course they are worried about attracting people. There have been first person accounts here, and elsewhere, where people who play GW get exposed to other types of gaming and cross over. Most won't I suspect, but some will. So why not get them, and save them from the evil clutches of GW?

*NJH: I'm all for cross-overs, but all we have is anecdotal evidence that anyone crosses-over. Is the effort worth the candle? I don't know, but I'm willing to be convinced by hard scientific data. The other question that needs to be considered is how many go the other way? How do we measure what is lost or gained?

Also, doesn't GW carry historical lines of miniatures, and don't they also publish historical rules too? If so, who says that at least some of their games won't be of this genre? Is that bad?

*NJH: Now there you have me. I'm fairly faithful to the vendor lines I collect, and the eras I collect. I'm not aware of any GW figure lines in my eras. I'm also not privvy to the events that GW plans to host. If they host all Historical events (no magic, monsters, and etc.) then my concerns will have been mostly addressed.

I don't play GW, don't buy it, etc. But again, a quick look at any HMGSE con program reveals many non-historical games.

*NJH: I have no problems with that situation. That's individuals hosting an event not a Non-Historical vendor hosting events to hawk its wares.

Please note that I don't really care if they attend or not. If they do, and the organization can get something for it, then why not try it? If it doesn't work, then don't do it again.

*NJH: Hasn't GW already done something like this in the past? If so, then data should be available. Also, I firmly believe HMGSE can do whatever they want at their cons, I just have concerns about the differences in the Purposes of each organization. While not totally mutually exclusive, there is a wide gulf between them.

NJH:

You know as well as I do that there is no hard data. None. Goodness knows what lessons learned were from Timonium, and one can only guess what the attendance numbers would have been without them there. My understanding is also that GW is going to do significant promotion of the convention through its stores and magazines.

I know, anecdotally, that there are a lot of people who attend HMGSE conventions that already play GW. I know this from some of my friends who do, and the huge crowds around the people selling GW product in the fleamarkets.

I would also be willing to bet that a lot more regular attendees of HMGSE cons know about GW than GW people know or have been exposed to historical miniatures. Since many dealers there already sell non-historical stuff, what really is the difference, if they have the space to let, and can reduce costs for others?

Speaking of those who actually attend, just when was the last time you attended an HMGSE convention? As I recall, you are the guy whose "dog ate his homework" when it came time to make a motion as a member for one of the meetings that could have materially affected the organization and decision making process that perhaps would have negated the entire BCC deal.

I've discovered that Games Workshop has completely eliminated their own Grand Tournament Circuit, which is now supported solely by Indy tourneys. Their Games Days are now down to a single event, to be held at the BCC on August 21, 2010.

Now that they only sanction Indy tourneys and their store-run events, what are they doing at Historicon?

I'm not throwing around any wild accusations. We all know that Games Workshop operates much like a philanthropic organization and is celebrated for its ability to play well with others. I'm just quite interested in Games Workshop's plans for bringing a new and unique flavor to the Historicon experience, breathing new life into the old convention when it enters its new home in the heartland of the Games Workshop Hobby.

Seriously though, I'm actually quite interested in finding out what sort of events they'll be running. I've played my fair share of The Games Workshop Hobby's offerings over the years and my historical buddies seem to have developed a bad habit of either falling over dead or moving to places with a whatcha'callit? Economy? Whatever that is. Scheduled kinda close to Origins though…

I'm actually quite interested in finding out what sort of events they'll be running.

Looks like 3 tournaments (40K,WHFB & LOTR?) on those 100 tables. Not ever playing one of thoose games, I've no idea if that is a multiple day format.

I still think generating any angst for any one company is a bit silly. There is a net gain in terms of admission $ to HMGS, it doesn't cost any extra (the BCC rents by big chunks, there isn't a per SF charge) and they aren't a dealer so nobody has to even see them if they don't want to sully their historical purity.

Frankly I think there should be a banner saying

HISTORICON WELCOMES
GAMES WORKSHOP
Warhamer
Warhammer 40,000
Lord of the Rings.

RICH

I…I….….

Nah!……If I say what I honestly think, I'll just get dawghoused again.

What about a nice polite sign saying

"This HISTORICAL EVENT does not support youth exploitationist, over priced, over commercialized, non historical garbage."

That way you dont even have to mention a product.

Of course most people will know what you meant….but its up to interpretation.

historygamer 03 Nov 2009 7:59 a.m. PST

You know as well as I do that there is no hard data. None.

*NJH: How on God's green Earth would I know that there is/isn't hard data?

Goodness knows what lessons learned were from Timonium, and one can only guess what the attendance numbers would have been without them there. My understanding is also that GW is going to do significant promotion of the convention through its stores and magazines.

*NJH: I'm not sure that a GW presence is relevant or not, to the Purpose of HMGSE. We could bring in Playboy's Ms July to hawk July's issue and increase attendance, but her presence (and that of Playboy) would have nothing to do with:

"The purpose of the Corporation is exclusively for educational and charitable purposes, including, for such purposes, the making of distributions to organizations that qualify as exempt organizations under Section 501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 (or the corresponding provision of any future United States Internal Revenue Law) and the running of educational programs promoting historical miniature gaming and military history."

I know, anecdotally, that there are a lot of people who attend HMGSE conventions that already play GW. I know this from some of my friends who do, and the huge crowds around the people selling GW product in the fleamarkets.

*NJH: So do I and I'm sure there are lots of others who can also say such. That has nothing to do with the issue I'm concerned about.

I would also be willing to bet that a lot more regular attendees of HMGSE cons know about GW than GW people know or have been exposed to historical miniatures. Since many dealers there already sell non-historical stuff, what really is the difference, if they have the space to let, and can reduce costs for others?

*NJH: That touches on the issue we're discussing, at least the one I thought we were discussing?

Speaking of those who actually attend, just when was the last time you attended an HMGSE convention?

*NJH: That has nothing to do with the issue under discussion?

As I recall, you are the guy whose "dog ate his homework" when it came time to make a motion as a member for one of the meetings that could have materially affected the organization and decision making process that perhaps would have negated the entire BCC deal.

*NJH: What the Hell kind of baseless BS accusation is that? Do you always so deliberately smear people with whom you converse?

McKinstry 03 Nov 2009 10:00 a.m. PST

Looks like 3 tournaments (40K,WHFB & LOTR?) on those 100 tables. Not ever playing one of thoose games, I've no idea if that is a multiple day format.

*NJH: I don't know much about WHFB, but if you play 40K don't be the Tau, and in the LOTR definitely don't be the Orcs.

NJH:

You were the one calling for data, so it appeared you knew something we all didn't. Your now denial of knowing whether it exits or not it kind of ridiculous since you first raised the issue:

"*NJH: I'm all for cross-overs, but all we have is anecdotal evidence that anyone crosses-over. Is the effort worth the candle? I don't know, but I'm willing to be convinced by hard scientific data. The other question that needs to be considered is how many go the other way? How do we measure what is lost or gained?"

No doubt if there was data, you'd quibble over that. This following post is just equally ridiculous:

"
*NJH: I'm not sure that a GW presence is relevant or not, to the Purpose of HMGSE. We could bring in Playboy's Ms July to hawk July's issue and increase attendance, but her presence (and that of Playboy) would have nothing to do with:"

GW people are gamers, who buy miniatures and play games. People who attend HMGSE conventions are gamers buy minitures and play games. Isn't really that big of a leap, is it? Oh, and I'm all for Miss July attending.

"Speaking of those who actually attend, just when was the last time you attended an HMGSE convention?

*NJH: That has nothing to do with the issue under discussion?"

Well, actually it does. You seem to be full of opinions on what others should do with their conventions. I was just wondering when the last time you attended one of them was, as it kind of places relevance on your comments, at least to me. Note, I don't tell you what I think you should do for your conventions, that are 2,000 miles away, do I?

"As I recall, you are the guy whose "dog ate his homework" when it came time to make a motion as a member for one of the meetings that could have materially affected the organization and decision making process that perhaps would have negated the entire BCC deal.

*NJH: What the Hell kind of baseless BS accusation is that? Do you always so deliberately smear people with whom you converse?"

That was not a personal attack. I did not smear you, or your good name. What I did was point out that when you actually had a chance to make a difference, and put some good people on the board who understood convention operations and costs, you disappeared. Some lame excuse about the internet eating your motion. That is a fact, not a smear, not an innuendo, not an opinion. I know, the truth hurts, and it is an old debating trick of claiming personal attack when confronted by the truth of your own shortcomings to make a real contribution here instead of throw rocks from 2,000 miles away. But then again, that seems to be what you are best at in discussion on HMGSE. Afterall, that is the entertainment you pay your $20 USD for, as you have said so often.

I am not pro-GW. Don't play it, don't buy it. But, given the circumstances and location of this convention, the idea of having them there is not a crazy idea either. It should be tried in this setting to see what happens. If not successful, then don't repeat it. That's my opinion. I live here, belong to the organization, volunteer at the cons, run games, and usually attend all three. Of course, on the internet, all opinions are equal.

Can we start the rumor that Miss July is coming? That would be a great thread. Maybe someone could do a miniature. Plus it would fit in with all the other hysteria.

Hello, I am the guy who runs the Teddy Bear Picnic games. I have run them at 5 cons now, including French and Indian teddys, Roman Teddys, and the Battle of Monmouth (AWI) with Teddys. Yes my games use a very simple set of rules, but I am running games for kids. I love it. I always have a bunch of kids who show up, play my games, and have fun. My rules are not some complex multichart historical monstrosity, but that does not matter to me. In fact I enjoy running for kids more than adults. Kids do not whine and complain anywhere near as much, they understand it is just a game and they have fun. I am sorry if you think my games bring down the intelligence level of the con. maybe I should just switch to GW game and cons and then kids and I would be more accepted.

Well said Jimmy!

Don't let this discussion stop you. Keep running those games.

I am sorry flicking wargamer but since I will not be a vendor at Historicon in Baltimore, Miss July will not be there either. LOL!

Some of us were kind of hoping Hooters would send over some staff with wings. They are right next to the BCC.