"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

I suspect part of the problem is Historicon has become the defacto "Wargames Miniature" convention in the US. History gaming in miniature may be the primary focus but clearly it hasn't been the only option at the convention. Although I'd rather "Williamsburg Muster" or "Spring Fever" become the all genre "Wargames Miniature" convention. But that won't happen until one of them moves to summer and they get Old Glory and other great vendors like Brigade Games and Age of Glory, etc to attend.

As much as I'll slam the Timmonium debacle, one of the few positives from that was the "GW" experience. I know a number of people who came because of that and saw other gaming and at the least commented favorably, plus even someones wife who enjoyed Lord of the Rings felt included as she had a game to play since GW was running games (demos I guess) regularly. That was back when they had an "Outrider" program so I'm not sure it's the same now or what GW is up to at Historicon. If it's only a tournament, that may not even be run by GW staff.

Anyway, I'm OK with expanding the "M" in HMGS. I'd keep out historical "non mini" RPGs, board games and card games before GW if I were king.

Civildisobedience says, "Apart from the fact that it does not look like they got a very good deal, the problem is there is no lasting savings."

I think we're both on the same page as far as that goes. Obviously, I don't know all the numbers, but I probably would have made a more fiscally sound decision, such as renting another tent at Lancaster in the parking lot and putting the flea market there. Maybe then they could have accomodated the FoW tournament.

"Replace the GW influx with 400 more DBM'ers and I don't think we see six pages of arguements. Replace them with 400 more FoW guys and at worst you'd see snickering about the 'people who don't understand WW2' threads."

Actually, I saw just as many complaints about Historicon not being able to accommodate various tournaments and then arguments about which historical groups should be allowed space at the Host. Once you have more players than room, favoritism starts and the scapegoat changes. It's easy to point out space orks, but it could just as easily be FoW, which it has been in the past.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

Neal Smith,

I have seen a number of modestly size convention who have depended on GW or other tournaments to bring in enough attendees to meet expenses. In several cases the advent of a GW gamesday or another closely timed show have hurt attendance badly.

Just a note about the GW Gameday being so close to Historicopn. The participation fees are often very high. As a result many gamers may have to chose between one and another being only a month apart.

So I too would not be surprised to see a GW move to July as well.

The Williamsburg Muster has GW events scheduled throughout the weekend that includes Fantasy, Historical, 40K and LOTR. I know that Neal's group has GW events at Spring Fever.

The group that is running though does not need 100 tables though.

link

Justin

"Back from the Dawghouse for a metaphor not directed at anyone specifically just at the overly opinionated"

Welcome back BlueDevil. I apologize if I had anything to do with getting you dawghoused. :)

Spring Fever 2010 is going to have a 50 person Warhammer Fantasy tournament this year. Spring Fever, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is our group's "All Miniatures Convention". I'll also be playing some sort of 40K game. Not a problem at all. :) At Southern Front, billed as our "historical show" (although we allow anything), I'll be playing nothing, but historical stuff.

I don't like my peas touching my mashed potatoes… Just a joke! :)

@Rudy – It just seems too much of a coincidence to me… :)

And I like mustard on my biscuit, Uuuummmm Huuummmm!

>Is the next step professional management and planning,

DING DING DING DING DING

WE HAVE A WINNER

Back from the Dawghouse for speaking the truth!…

Justin – Welcome back to the land of civilized conversation! I'll see you tomorrow night (Thursday) at ODMS game night.

As far as the GW crowd goes, it seems like a simple fix is in order. Have the boys behind Napoleon's Battles issue a 4th edition. It can have all the snazzy charts and spiffy wooden block markers of 3rd edition, but also include army lists for Space Orcs and the Whatnots of Khorne, and whatever else – and all of a sudden the GW stuff is historical. It would be in a Historical Wargame, then, wouldn't it? Isn't that enough criteria?

Chuck (heading for cover)

It seems to me the only problem people have is that GW is going to be an actual presence, rather than just having a bunch of games there. I would guess that they are providing their own staff to move their stuff, and as far as I know the HMGS volunteers really don't move tables, so other than having to register the 200-400 people showing up to play GW games and print more badges, I really don't see that big an impact on the HMGS volunteers. With 100 tables of stuff to bring in, I am betting they get to use the loading dock, so they won't impact on the "regular" gms with there games unloading in other places. They will monitor their own games. They will keep track of their own stuff.

The argument about it not being historical seems to be a red herring. I have been saying for a while HMGS needs to just admit the conventions have dropped the H. The only thing the H does now is let people know that the main thrust of the convention is historicals, not the only thing.

You are not going to get the kids to play if they never see it, and bringing the two groups together in such a convention is a good way to do it. Who knows, I might get inspired to unpack all those GW armies I collected before I left Atlanta. Might be able to unload them in the flea market!

"It can have all the snazzy charts and spiffy wooden block markers of 3rd edition, but also include army lists for Space Orcs and the Whatnots of Khorne, and whatever else – and all of a sudden the GW stuff is historical. It would be in a Historical Wargame, then, wouldn't it? Isn't that enough criteria?"

That's just not realistic. Players would need to buy a separate supplementary army book for each one of those army lists.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

I'm back from the Dawghouse. Its obvious that some people are sensitive to the truth.
I've been part of this hobby for five and a half decades now. I have seen it come and go.
But one thing I am absolutely positive of. Warhammer is not wargaming and it is certainly not historical. The players I have seen have almost no idea of historical stuff and no interest in finding out. The old myth that it would bring gamers into wargaming is proving untrue. I do not believe it brings in any more than entry via other means and if anything it lowers the tone of conventions where conveners are trying to raise interest in Historical Wargaming.
Players are not only encouraged…they are I N T E N D E D to have their whole direction within the commercial lines of a restricted gaming universe created for the purpose of selling them an over priced product. It does not encourage players to look outside that artificial universe because they would find less expensive products to buy.

HMGS should keep it firmly outside the doors along with any other gaming systems that encourage young players to become enmeshed in a blatantly commercial buying trap.

That's funny I and about 10 people in my gaming group all came to historicals via Warhammer.If you look thru the posts on this thread there is much of the same.So the "we won't get any new historical gamers from the GW crowd" argument just plain don't fly.
Last time I played historicals in my old FLGS there was plenty of GW being played… I didn't catch anything from them so what's the problem.

Mal Wright knows whereof he speaks. GW is a marketing-driven organization that keeps customers figuratively ignorant of other possibilities for the same reason gambing casinos have no clocks.
When was the last time GW invited historical miniatures people to one of their fests?

Obviously your wrong.See my post.Why in the hell would they invite a competing company to one of their Games Days? I'm not a big fan of GW, don't get me wrong, but they will NOT make my enjoyment of a con any less simply by being there.That's ridiculous.
If they remain "ignorant of other possibilties" maybe their just plain ignorant.But the ones that aren't have potential to be historical gamers.

I'm a bit unclear. Exactly when does a wargame become fantasy? How about when Lee wins Gettysburg? Or DBM armies from different centuries face either other in a points battle? Are we going to regulate that? What about the Mechwars that currently take place at all HMGSE cons? Or the snowball fights/chariott races, pulp fiction, etc, etc, etc.

I am no great fan of GW, but it is a slippery slope some are advocating. If you don't like it, stay away from those games.

I would note that "the" most crowded tables in the fleamarket are always the guys selling GW stuff.

Oh, one other thing. Aside from setting up booths in the bathrooms, the Host was out of space. Setting up tents in the parking lot only kinda, sorta solves one problem, but adds to another (lack of parking).

Hard choices all around.Pick your poison.

I'm back from the Dawghouse. Its obvious that some people are sensitive to the truth.

Didn't learn a thing from your "time out" did you?

Warhammer is not wargaming and it is certainly not historical. The players I have seen have almost no idea of historical stuff and no interest in finding out. The old myth that it would bring gamers into wargaming is proving untrue. I do not believe it brings in any more than entry via other means and if anything it lowers the tone of conventions where conveners are trying to raise interest in Historical Wargaming.

Utter rubbish!

Ralph

I can't define what wargaming is, but I know it when I see it.

Chuck

If GW were so scared of having their clientel being exposed to anything else, then why on Earth would they want any presence at Historicon? They risk their poor deluded followers being exposed to the bigger world, finding other miniature lines, and gasp, possibly learning something. My goodness, has someone informed GW of this? They may change their mind about coming.

You can't raise the interest in historical gaming if the only people showing up to the events are already the disciples of historical gaming. Exactly how do the other people get exposed to it?

I fear we are now debating this just because it is fashionable to oppose any changes.

Players are not only encouraged…they are I N T E N D E D to have their whole direction within the commercial lines of a restricted gaming universe created for the purpose of selling them an over priced product. It does not encourage players to look outside that artificial universe because they would find less expensive products to buy.

Okay, so FOW is also not wargaming by this standard? Or not historical enough?

Some might argue this particular marketing approach has done a lot to promote WWII gaming?

You can't raise the interest in historical gaming if the only people showing up to the events are already the disciples of historical gaming. Exactly how do the other people get exposed to it?

At the shops or one on one with friends. I actually ran a miniatures convention, not just volunteered but has access to the correct info, that had a GW tournament with it. It was Desert Wars in Vegas.
The GW guy that ran the tournament was really organized and friendly. I had rented space for them (they paid for it and he collected entry fees) on the lower floor.
They did their thing we did ours.
None of them came to see the historical stuff at all. After they were done they packed up and left.
Will it be the same at Historicon? Probably.
I didn't see any problem. But then they paid for the space they rented.

"Hard choices all around.Pick your poison."

No doubt. Trouble is one group of people is bound to be unhappy with the decision.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

Yep. :-)

Why in the hell would they invite a competing company to one of their Games Days?

Similarly….why the hell would you invite them to a historical wargames day? They are competing with that too.

Didn't learn a thing from your "time out" did you?

Actually I learnt a big lesson.
I now appreciate that certain elements will lodge complaints if you tell the truth via expressing an honest opinion based on your experiences in the hobby.

It doesn't change my opinion of course. It just illustrates that if you express it someone will have you silenced.

Mal,

Having an opinion and expressing it is fine. Expressing yourself by slandering others who may wish to enjoy this hobby in a different manner than yourself is not. The rules are in place to guarantee a mature dialogue. Your offending piece would not be confused with mature dialogue. I think you can see that.

As an aside, I would never complain to the editor about your comments, no matter how self indulgent, self righteous or pompous they may have sounded.

Life is too short to harbour a near pathological hatred for a company that makes toys. With that in mind, best wishes on your inaugural Historical Wargaming Convention. If I weren't so far away I'd love to come. Maybe we could discuss this further, with nicer surroundings, over a nice McLaren Vale Cabernet.

Ralph

Does the HMGS sell figures and rules? No so there is no competition between them and GW.
Does GW sell figures and rules?Yes so historical games and thus figure and rule manufacturers would be competing with them at their Games Day.
I usually enjoy reading your post Mal,they are generaly level headed and informative, but this unbridled hatred of all that is GW has really got me perplexed.
Not trying to be a smart but it sounds like you blame GW for the fact that historical interest in that con has
declined.Maybe it's not because of GWs presence, maybe the historical guys just didn't do alot .
As far as the HMGS cons go,I can't see guys not running games just cause GW is there.At least I hope no one is that petty.All this talk of HMGS losing it's focus has got me a bit confused too.I thought the focus was to play games and have a good time.It's not a historical society, it's a historical MINIATURES GAMING society.So what if the games aren't purely historical? Are they hurting us? Is anybody gonna die?

All this talk of HMGS losing it's focus has got me a bit confused too.I thought the focus was to play games and have a good time.It's not a historical society, it's a historical MINIATURES GAMING society.So what if the games aren't purely historical? Are they hurting us? Is anybody gonna die?

So if GW is not there, are they hurting us? Is anyone going to die? How is having GW there helping us?

Long Island Gamer writes:

So if GW is not there, are they hurting us? Is anyone going to die? How is having GW there helping us?

Long Island – I think the benefit (if there is one) would be in one of two areas. First, it shows that Historicon is a "big tent" miniatures convention. Sure, our focus and main thrust is historical (as it should be), but we accommodate others. Second, the recruitment issue. GW is a machine – geared at bringing young adolescents of a certain age range into the hobby, and keeping them entranced for a number of years. They are very good at this, and attract numbers more than any other tabletop gaming currently out there. At the point in which those gamers start to lose interest in GW style gaming, the hope of other (usually more mature) gamers, is that a certain percentage will transfer to other gaming.

Plus, there are a certain (not small) number of Historical gamers who also play the GW stuff.

I'm not advocating, just trying to explain positions I have seen and heard expressed over the years.

Chuck

LIG
Are they hurting us by being there or not being there neither so why do you care?
Is any body gonna die either way? No so why do you care?
Are they helping us? More attendance so more $$$ and see Chuck's post about recruiting.
Maybe the fantasy guys are right and we are just a bunch of old fuddy duddies.
Things at the HMGS cons I'm not interested in or they totally turn me off:
Any scale other than 28mm
HOTT
DBM/DBA tournament games
ACW
naval games
counter games/ board games
airplane games
Do I think they should be there? Sure.Do they bother me ?hell no.So what is the big deal?

I usually enjoy reading your post Mal,they are generaly level headed and informative, but this unbridled hatred of all that is GW has really got me perplexed.

More a cool reasoning of how things measure up rather than a hatred. I confess I do not like the marketing style in the sense of being aimed at 'customer capture'.

But why is it that as soon as someone express a contrary opinion, one is suddenly expressing an unbridled hatred? If I see some about to crush their fingers in a door and warn them not to do so is that indicative of a secret unbridled hatred of doors?

I am expressing a view, as a veteran of the hobby. There are a lot more things in life I dislike more than Warhammer. Why does any contrary view have to be a hatred of it? I dislike it for sure, but hatred is a strong word.

I think that the problem with this debate is that people expect all contrary argument to be 'a rant'. I would prefer to call it a 'debate'. And in a debate both sides are presented. I am presenting one side. Sure I think that some adults should know better than be involved in Warhammer, but that is only my opinion and my submission to the debate. Sure I have expressed a view that its inclusion lowers the intelligence level of a convention. But it is still only my opinion and I am at least honest enough to say so.

I am somewhat puzzled that there seem to be so many people who cannot engage in a debate of these issues without taking it as a rant or an attack. People often disagree with me, but I dont lose any sleep over it and they should not lose any over disagreeing with me.

But none of that should interfere with the freedom of both sides to express those opinions in reasoned debate.

I will however again mention, that one of the problems with email and www posts, is that it does not convey the emotion of the person writing. As such it can turn an ordinary matter of fact discussion into something offensive, when it was never intended to be.

I'm perplexed by Games Workshop's sudden willingness to be included amongst other competing companies in a convention environment. They have their own Games Days and tournaments, none of which are open to companies outside of their control. For years, they've shunned the GenCon and Origins spotlights. What changed?

Also, I wonder what makes them believe they'll see a return on their investment from attending a Historicon? Games Workshop doesn't give away as much as a penny without knowing how they'll get a dollar back in return.

Did HMGS-E go after them or did they come calling to HGMS-E?

Is it time for all miniatures gamers to come together for the betterment of their hobby? If we do, will we have to scream "Waagh!" whenever anyone points a camera at us?

Plus, there are a certain (not small) number of Historical gamers who also play the GW stuff.

I'm not advocating, just trying to explain positions I have seen and heard expressed over the years.

Chuck

I agree with you to a point. Historicon has it's roots in historical gaming. Over the years, we've allowed non historical games to creep in – Battle Tech, Pulp Fiction, etc. These are generally games run by fans. To have a company come and run a SciFi\ Fantasy event seems to be pushing the envelope, IMHO. If SciFi and Fantasy are your cup of tea (and there's nothing wrong with that – I enjoy those games as well), there's GenCon and Origins.

If the BoD wants to push Historicon in that direction, then be up front with the members of the organization. We shouldn't have to find out in the form of a rumor (nobody was more shocked than I was when my friend told me about this. I really thought he was wrong).

Allot of organizations that try to be everything to everyone usually end up pleasing nobody.

>our focus and main thrust is historical (as it should be), but we accommodate others.
>

Huh? When did this "accomodation" concept sneak into the HMGS Charter document?

High time we regained the Sudetenland.

"a near pathological hatred"

"this unbridled hatred"

Why the hyperbole?

Allen

Why the hyperbole?

Allen, you wouldn't ask that if you read the original text. Especially as you are one who cares enough to point out the decline of civility on the TMP. I made my comment to Mal and consider this closed.

I have no problem with GW being at Historicon. I have some problem in being sold "a bill of goods" that we need room to grow, and find out that the room was needed to accommodate 2 national tournaments that have had little to do with Historicon in the past. When I ask how does this benefit the membership of the HMGS-East, I'm told that concern is not important, and that the HMGS is "Not a Service Club"!

That bothers me more than if 200 people choose to play 40K in the hall next to ours in the BCC.

Ralph

I read the original post. I did not read an expression of emotion bordering on a psychiatric problem, which is what you suggested, Ralph.

I am quite sympathetic to your other concerns. I've seen too many LA-area cons made rather unpleasant by the cries of "Waaagh!", making it next to impossible to play an historical game in the same large facility. And that's why Mal's outstanding rant didn't strike me in the way it did you.

I prefer to marvel at Mal's prose than suggest that he is ill. 'Cause he ain't.

Allen

TMP link

>>

>GW is supposedly going to do a lot of advertising through their own magazines and stores to support this con.
>

No, to support their con. It costs them NOTHING to fill a page in their own rag.

They are having a convention to gain something from the their own customers, not for the benefit of HMGS members. They should pay the freight. Obviously they think they will profit by co-locating with HMGS or they would not do it, because EVERY decision made by Games Workshop is for the profit of the 3 banks that own it.

On another topic:
Do you really want to try to co-opt the GS [(Games Sweatshop (TM)] Suckers Club? Then take out an ad in their rag (except that you can't) and invite them to a completely FREE historical convention. HMGS will even pay their hotel bill for one night. THAT would meet the HMGS charter to promote historical gaming, & education.
>>

Allen
There were 10 snips in the original post.Maybe that has something to do with it.
Mal says he doesn't hate GW, he was just exspressing his opinion.OK I'll take his word for it.
How about "very strong dislike"?LOL
I still fail to see how it lowers the intelligence level at a con and why adults should know better than to play it.
Actually I feel much less intelligent from seeing the teddy bear games at the cons than watching fantasy battle.

Actually I feel much less intelligent from seeing the teddy bear games

Oh come on! They put on one hell of a picnic!

There were 10 snips in the original post

The ten snips were the editor expressing his opinion that my post was a so called 'group attack'. My Private Messages box quickly filled with people who disagreed with him but none that did agree with him.

The message as it is, with all the snippets makes it look as if I was swearing of giving a speech to the Nuremberg Rally. It was nor written in anything like the mood of a rant, even though it now looks like it must have been. I was merely expressing my opinion.

It is also not single words snipped, but terms such as commercialism and descriptions of sales strategy that I fail to see was anything not already said before. And in the words of another TMP member….said with far more venom and distaste.

I am still of the opinion that putting 100 tables of WARHAMMER at a HISTORICAL convention is a serious mistake. It is not, and has nothing to do with historical games.

"I still fail to see how it lowers the intelligence level at a con…"

I'm guessing you haven't been at a con where, in a VERY large room, historical players can't hear each other in order to play their games because of the "Waaaaaghs!!!" at the far end.

Allen

Well, see there ya go.That doesn't lower the general intelligence level of the con, it confirms the lower level of the guys yelling "Waagghh".LOL
Yeah I seem to remember at the Timonium Fall In them yelling their lungs out.At the time I wondered why someone from the staff didn't put a stop to it.TBH it's no worse than a bunch of grown men standing around a table yelling "Arrgghh" for a pirate game,which I have also heard at a east convention.
The problem isn't the guys playing in a GW tournament ,it's the geeky,our game is the best and only,GW Staffer that comes along with it.

"Arrrgghh" and "Yo Ho Ho" would be from Warhammer "Historical"'s "Legends of the High Seas", then. See, GW again!

>>> The problem isn't the guys playing in a GW tournament, it's the geeky, our game is the best and only, GW Staffer that comes along with it.

Only *one* staffer? Consider yourself blessed.

Mal Wright 31 Oct 2009 7:56 p.m. PST

….

I am still of the opinion that putting 100 tables of WARHAMMER at a HISTORICAL convention is a serious mistake. It is not, and has nothing to do with historical games.

*NJH: This is an issue that's not going away in the near term future. Why not? Because there are people that firmly believe it's OK for a Peach Cobbler to win an Apple Pie Baking Contest. When I go to a Quilt Show I'm not looking for needlepoint or knitting exhibitions. When GW holds a Convention and provides tables for DBA and FoW Tournaments, then we'll have real reciprocity.

NJH:

Your comparision is apples to watermellon. GW is a company, that promotes its own wares. Your suggestion that they should host FoW, etc, is like saying Ford should also show some GM products on their showroom floor. That is ridiculous. HMGSE has lots of different "car makers" at their cons.

HMGSE has no product, other than their conventions. Fantasy games already take place there. You can't be a little bit pregnant. Either you tolerate it, or you don't. Obviously the decision was made a long, long time ago to tolerate it. So, if they have the space, and get promotion for the convention from them, then why not try it?

Either you tolerate ahistorical stuff in the dealer room, the gaming space, etc, or you don't. They have, and they do. I'm not saying this is a decision I would make, but then again, I'm not on the board.

Of course they are worried about attracting people. There have been first person accounts here, and elsewhere, where people who play GW get exposed to other types of gaming and cross over. Most won't I suspect, but some will. So why not get them, and save them from the evil clutches of GW?

Also, doesn't GW carry historical lines of miniatures, and don't they also publish historical rules too? If so, who says that at least some of their games won't be of this genre? Is that bad?

I don't play GW, don't buy it, etc. But again, a quick look at any HMGSE con program reveals many non-historical games.

Please note that I don't really care if they attend or not. If they do, and the organization can get something for it, then why not try it? If it doesn't work, then don't do it again.

HMGSE has no product, other than their conventions.

Some would say the historical miniatures gaming hobby is the product, and that the convention is the primary vehicle to achieve that end. There is such a thing as brand dilution.

Even though my personal interests span both realms, I recognize that the people wanting a separation are fully justified in their feelings. HMGS maintaining a primarily historical flavor to their shows would be no different than GW preventing non-GW stuff in their tournaments in order to preserve their hobby.

A convention should have a clear picture of what player base it wishes to attract and to cater for.
Having established that, the answer of what sort of games should be present is very easy.

"Also, doesn't GW carry historical lines of miniatures…"

They do? Where?

"…and don't they also publish historical rules too?"

Not lately. They seem intent on killing off their historical systems through inattention.

"If so, who says that at least some of their games won't be of this genre?"

Experience. GW USA does not run or support Warhammer Historical events at any US conventions, anywhere, ever. The former Warhammer Historical manager did, traveling over from the UK to the HMGS-East cons; he was sacked.

"I read the original post. I did not read an expression of emotion bordering on a psychiatric problem, which is what you suggested, Ralph."

Allen, if you read the original postings, Mal attacked the intelligence of anyone who plays GW games, in a bad way. Numerous people thought he crossed a line. In a forum where GW-bashing is sport, Mal offended numerous people. Despite the fact that numerous people have stated he was wrong, he seems to disagree under the guise of truth, opinion and have a laugh. Personally, I didn't find his explanation logical or cogent.