"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

You're commenting on moving a specific convention. You've attended hundreds of others, so then you know each convention is different. How can you comment on moving without attending it? Isn't that going on second hand information?

What makes you think I am not going to attend? I've been planning on attending this since last year…

If memory serves me correct you said that you weren't going to attend, am I correct in this?
So the question that needs to be asked is simple:
LIG, are you going to Historicon next year; yes or no?

If yes, fine…
If no, why keep trying to stir the pot?

You're commenting on moving a specific convention. You've attended hundreds of others, so then you know each convention is different. How can you comment on moving without attending it? Isn't that going on second hand information?

All I have have said in the past were the following:

A: "Give it a chance" (which so many of the folks out there, REFUSE to do for reasons real and/or imagined…)

and

B: I think in our past conversations on this, I kept asking the simple question of you, "Can you provide a better alternative location?" and all you could do was bring up "The Host", and why you felt it should still be there…I mean, if I am incorrect, we can go back and check older posts but looking at the info I've saved on these conversations, I think I am pretty much right…

OK – so then what should be the definition of a Historical convention? I never said my definition was perfect – just a starting point. Do you think that this is a historical convention with 100 table put aside for Fantasy, 40K and LoTR?

Whats the definition of a Historical Convention?…well…what's the length of a piece of string?
Nope…never said it was….But I'd like to know the following:
Without GW being there, how many other "non-historical" games were going to be played, (This includes ALL SCI-FI, Zombie, Monster, Horror, Superhero, Apocalypse, Fantasy, Pulp, Steampunk, etc…)….
I would say quite a few…so they should be eliminated also?
And might I remind you of the massive stink that was caused a couple of years ago, when FoW put on their tournament at the Host, and due to them taking up A LOT of the tables, that a lot of the "non-historical" games were swept aside?
So should these people be screwed out of having a table at a convention to put on a good game and have fun with others simply because they don't fit some definition of "historical"???
I don't think so.
The BCC has plenty of room for Non-Historical and Historical alike.

Why would I ask the GW folks when the BoD is ultimately responsible for what is being played at the convention?

Because maybe you might get an answer from GW. Perhaps they have been asked, or haven't been asked, or have been asked and are waiting to respond, or something?
And if you don't get ANY answer from the BOD, then why not ask GW? Maybe whoever set this up, simply didn't think to ask them, and you could get points for suggesting it….

Yes, I did apologize for personally insulting you. I'm still sorry for that. How am I insulting you here?

Well…if I wanted to be picky I could toss the "How many Historicons have you been to?" snark…but it's no biggie…

I'm confused by the boards actions. When we try to understand why the decision was made to move to Baltimore we get a different answer and a song and dance. Show me numbers and figures. I'm a paying member of HMGS-E, in good standing, and I'm owed at least an explanation – even if I'm not on the BoD.

There are a lot of things that I am confused by also with the Board…however the reasons stated for the move to Baltimore has been stated and repeated again and again. I myself even wrote them on a post here not too long ago, direct from the Historicon book that was handed out at Gencon.
What numbers and figures do you want to be shown?
The reasons for the move were simple and easily understood, and well put out. If you want I will PM you what the reasons were for the move and why they needed it.
Yes you are owed an explanation and I hope you and everyone else gets one, but until Pete, or someone else comes onto this site and makes a "FROM HMGS BOD…REASONS WE MOVED HISTORICON" post, then there is going to be a lot of finger pointing, whispering and behind the scenes accusations, rumor-mongerong, etc…Hell pard…we still have a guy that on the site here that just recently was trying to flame up something that he says happened among the HMGS BOD over FIFTEEN YEARS AGO…

I'm going to step out of this, and actually email Pete and ask him to please please PLEASE make a post here explaining the Historicon Move, OR get his permission to post the pages of the book onto my blog for all to read, and I will give the link, and we can all read what is said and comment on it.

That way at least I can say "I'm trying to do SOMETHING positive and help here…"

Would a delegation from the U.N. be able to help here?

Nope, they'd probably side w/ the GW folks 'cause they are from the EU

"Membership Sensing Session"

Ok, "sensing session" is officially the stupidest phrase I have ever heard.

Also, scheduling something at 8am Saturday is screaming, "stay away so we have fewer people for whom we have to act like we care at all what any of them think."

oh darn while I was not paying attention it digressed into a debate over what is a "historical" GAME, and I missed it……

GAME being the operative word.

Man…for a hobby where people play with little toy soldiers, this has more politics and finger pointing…

The only other things I've seen just as bad are SCA chapters and Civil War Reenactments…

Hey the U.N. are impartial! Surely a few U.N. troops could sort this out? Clinton could be a special envoy and get everyone around the table talking…

Also, scheduling something at 8am Saturday is screaming, "stay away so we have fewer people for whom we have to act like we care at all what any of them think."

Every Fall In and Cold Wars I've been to have had the BOD session at 8am on Saturday. Based on periodic discussions both here and on the Yahoo group, I think all recent boards, not just this one, have decided 8am is the best of a bad set of choices. You can't do it when the Dealer Hall is open or you exclude the dealers, you can't do it on Friday when some folks may still have to work and you can't do it in the evening when everyone wants to game and/or drink. For me, 8am is by far the best time since it doesn't conflict with any other events.

Looking at the PEL for Friday at Fall In, roughly 1 out of 3 games are 'non-historical' meaning fantasy, sci-fi, VSF or Pulp. If I count the clearly made up 'what if' scenarios, that number rises to almost half.

I think historicals are not and never have been purely an actual forces only set of gamers but rather the dominant preference for a set of gamers of which many, if not most, also choose to game in VSF, Sci-fi, Pulp or Fantasy. I think any attempt to define what constitutes an acceptable historical game versus an unwelcome deviance from the grail can only end up harming both the Cons and the organization far more than where or when an event is held.

When the need for attendance to pay for the event at fancier and fancier places became a higher priority than the historical or ahistorical focus of the event, the view of Historicon and some other HMGS (east and elsewhere)conventions began to shift.

If enough in an area are not happy with the shift, then the splintering of the parent organization may occur. It is a better alternative than having gamers (who are very limited in number) just stay home and refuse to attend conventions.

If memory serves me correct you said that you weren't going to attend, am I correct in this?
So the question that needs to be asked is simple:
LIG, are you going to Historicon next year; yes or no?

If yes, fine…
If no, why keep trying to stir the pot?

Stir the pot? Who was it that set this whole GW tournament up? Who was it that went from "we're reviewing locations for Historicon" to "we're moving" without getting input from the community?

If the BoD was forthcoming about their intentions, none of these conversations would be taking place.

I'm being as helpful as I can. I'm calling out a train wreck when I see it!

Stir the pot? Who was it that set this whole GW tournament up? Who was it that went from "we're reviewing locations for Historicon" to "we're moving" without getting input from the community?

Usually when you elect a president and a board of directors that means that you have given them the power to do things without it becoming a completely total vocal democracy. So things will get done without your input, or approval.

If the BoD was forthcoming about their intentions, none of these conversations would be taking place.

And what are their intentions?…Let's see…Increase the size of the con…make it bigger AND better…and MORE enjoyable…
Oh yeah…and put it somewhere in a decent sized city that is EASY to get to, and at a location that can administrately AND logistically support a convention that size…
So far I see no "evil intentions" of the board. There is no night of the long knives going on; but there are rumors and whispers and yes, people DO have agendas, and no matter what the BOD says or does, there will be that group of people that will shout, pout, and scream unhappily about it.
It's like herding cats…

I'm being as helpful as I can. I'm calling out a train wreck when I see it!

*sigh*
Okay LIG…HOW is this a "train wreck"?
Gee, 100 more tables means…ummm..100 more games being played?…and if filled just once…that's um…200 more people that would show up…which would be better for ticket sales, food sales, lodging, and dealers…

But the question I am going to ask you once again is this…
Are you going to Historicon next year, yes or no?
A: If yes, fine…please explain how a 100 table GW tournament will destroy the con and/or your experience.
B: If no, then why all the ballyhoo?

And what are their intentions?…Let's see…Increase the size of the con…make it bigger AND better…and MORE enjoyable…

Bigger? Yes.

Better and more enjoyable depends on where you're sitting.

"…please explain how a 100 table GW tournament will destroy the con and/or your experience."

Something similar has been reported:

TMP link

Will it change the nature of Historicon to that extent? Who knows?

And "bigger" only works if it doesn't drive a lot of folks away. "Better": as Goldwyrm says.

Allen

Allen, while understanding that (and this is my opinion), that I do not think that Historicon and the BCC will go down in Flames, and/or have a massive boycott of Historical Gamers if GW does show up.

As I have said…Geez people…give it a chance before you take it out back and shoot it…

You asked.

You've seen the negative responses to Timonium, years ago (these folks have long memories). You've seen Mal's thoughts on a GW presence in a club and its effects on the club and its show.

As I said, who knows.

On the other hand, there's no guarantee a snakebit horse will get better.

Allen

Geez, Murph. I'm sorry you were so distraught by all of this discussion that you had to post a rant on Facebook. Unfortunately, I've had to block you there, 'cause you used some pretty bad language, and I don't want the kids reading stuff like that on my home page.

Maybe you ought to ease off a little there, feller, and try recognizing that there are others who have some very legitimate concerns, instead of calling them the names you did.

Hoping you can feel better soon.

Allen

But the question I am going to ask you once again is this…
Are you going to Historicon next year, yes or no?
A: If yes, fine…please explain how a 100 table GW tournament will destroy the con and/or your experience.
B: If no, then why all the ballyhoo?

I'll make you a deal – you tell us how many times you've been to Historicon and I'll tell you if I'm going. I'm a paying member of HMGS-E – which gives me every right question what the organization does. Are you a member of HMGS-E?

Besides, what makes you think that being in Baltimore is better? Remember – it's easier for you to get there, not everyone.

Geez, Murph. I'm sorry you were so distraught by all of this discussion that you had to post a rant on Facebook. Unfortunately, I've had to block you there, 'cause you used some pretty bad language, and I don't want the kids reading stuff like that on my home page.

Maybe you ought to ease off a little there, feller, and try recognizing that there are others who have some very legitimate concerns, instead of calling them the names you did.

Oh please post it here – it should be fun reading!

a) That would be inappropriate, copying from Facebook.

b) It would either be bleeped out of all recognition, or would get me DHed if not bleeped.

Allen

b) It would either be bleeped out of all recognition, or would get me DHed if not bleeped.

Allen

Oh I love it! Too funny!

Contains what?

Well, to some people… I for one DO think that past attendance at Historicon is relevant. Since I threw off marital shackles in '96, which for you Johnnies-come-lately, is back in the last century AND milennium, I have been to at least 10 Historicons.
I am very much in the makeup of the Pope in the last century who when commenting on changes to the constitution of the Jesuits said "Sint aut sunt aut non sint." ("Let things remain as they are, or let them not be.") If my Latin is off, blame the Pope, who is infallible, or the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations for getting it wrong.

I have never believed the propaganda about Historicon getting too big for its britches, because I was THERE. I saw empty table in prime gaming times. Sometimes, the Distelfink Room had 25% empty tables.

Last year, Flames of War had a National Championship Tournament, and had insufficient room. This year, they are not at Historicon. I fail to see why that should apall me. It does not. Their tournament was too big, they found someplace. That's fine with me.
I have nothing against 40K, besides the fact that I hate the whole universe. But, a game is a game, and I have nothing against their having tournaments. Except, where it inconveniences ME. Forcing Historicon to move for silly and frivolous reasons inconveniences me. If that makes me sound self centered, who isn't?

As I said earlier, the ONLY reason we "needed more room" was to accomodate big bloated tournaments. Without them, which we did NOT need, we are and were fine.

BTW, anyone who insists that FoW is not "historical" is just plain blindly deluded by ignorance and hatred for a game.
"Points" does not make in non-historical. Neither does the fact that you can play tournaments. Played historically, it gives believeable results. Sure, it can sometimes give loopy results, but I defy you to name ANY game that does not.

BTW, I challenge Allen's contention that the PEL he links to has non-historical games. OK, maybe 25%…
However, if you leave out the Battletech games, the percentage drops significantly. Just ask any hardcore Battletech nut. They are historical…

I had a longer post, but I'll turn over the balance of my 2 minute time to the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

Whoopy it's started again, one of my favorite topics: Baltimore Historicon. When ever I go to the convention board I hoping to find something about this convention because it's so entertaining. This one is no exception. Go ahead fellas fight it out. This is definitely a spectator sport.

Hear we go. Look some of our old friends are hear. There are the ones calling the move a conspiracy. Their reaction to GW? MORE CONSPIRACY. This group over hear is really ed (I wonder if that makes it past the censors). They're the ones convinced that Historicon couldn't make it without their attendance and would have to return to the Host. GW attendance makes their threat a lot of hot air. Then there are the purests. I think these comments are precious:

I personally define Historicals as armies that have a basis in history. … [With GW] I'd like to understand how we can continue to bill this as a historical convention. … Do you think that this is a historical convention with 100 table put aside for Fantasy, 40K and LoTR?

As aecurtis pointed out, that horse has already bolted. Here are some games for Fall-In:

* War of the Worlds on the North German Plains Victorian Science fiction
* Bug Hunt! Haldus IV was destroyed by Imperial virus bombs
* Battletech
* Escape from Ragnar Station, Commander Adama takes command
* Venus in a fly trap, Cylons
* Martian Float Ship Racing
* Things that go bump in the night
* Carnage in Space
* Battle for Picon, Cylons
* Rendezvous at Picon
* Silence on Rigel VII
* Gnome Wars: The Mill at Nodder
* Orbital Insertion Operation [don't ask]
* Battle of 5 Armies Can an army of goblins and wargs defeat a coalition army of elves, dwarves, and men? The epic battle from the Hobbit kid friendly game.

This came from just about half the list. Double this and you have around 30 fantasy and scifi games at Fall-In. And that's just listing Battletech only once. But Heavens to Mergatroid we can't have 100 at Historicon or we will lose our virginity.

I'll tell you what worries me about GW taking 100 tables. What if they don't bring them back?

Allen brings up a good point:

Will it change the nature of Historicon to that extent? Who knows?

Raising my hand: "oh, oh, I do." The answer is no, it won't change. We know that the nature of Historicon will change in the move to Baltimore. What that new nature will be we don't know yet. But the nature of the new Historicon will include GW games. Since the new nature of Historicon will include GW, GW won't change the new nature of Historicon. It will be a component of the new nature Historicon.

Alan I can help you with another thoughts.

On the other hand, there's no guarantee a snakebit horse will get better.

Actually there is. You see in Maryland (site of Timonium) there are two venomous snakes: the cooperhead and the timber rattlesnakes. The venom of both is designed to kill small animals. Only in unusual circumstances will they kill a human. This means an animal as large as a horse will not die from such a strike. What will happen is the horse will develop antibodies for the venom. In fact, horse antibodies are collected and used to help those who have undergone viper snakebites. So the horse will get better and will help others so bitten. Now everyone can see for himself or herself how that metaphor plays out with Baltimore. It is more than my little grey cells can deal with today.

I'm a paying member of HMGS-E – which gives me every right question what the organization does. Are you a member of HMGS-E?

Who me? No. However, since this discussion is being done TMP rather than a HMGS-E site; and since I'm a card-carrying member of TMP (hey Bill when do we get our cards), I have the sacred right to bitch (incase that gets blocked it's like hitch only with a b) moan, and complain about anything. My problem is I haven't found anything the board has done that I disagree with. Oh well, we can always hope that changes.

However, boys and girls here is the real fear of attendees to Historicon. They fear GW folks will put on better looking games and they will be shown up. Of course this is a real possibility. After all, it doesn't take much to show up OD blankets sprinkled with lichen and paper roads.

Rich

"Just ask any hardcore Battletech nut. They are historical…"

And Admiral Adama is historical. And bug hunts are historical. And Martian float ship racing is historical. Ad infinitum (or until the end of the PEL). They're historical to those who wish them to be so.

HMGS convention managers can define "historical" or "close to historical, and acceptable" any way they wish in order to be inclusive, but for historical purists, the East conventions' virginity was breached long, long ago. So it's a little silly to getting upset over some Space Marines and Orks at this late date.

The real issue, as some have repeatedly pointed out despite the unwillingness of others to listen, is that the decision to move seems to have been made predicated on assumptions which are not demonstrably correct.

From a purely disinterested viewpoint--the first Historicon was my last one, and I won't be coming East for one anytime soon--it looks like a rush to do *something* pushed aside any careful examination of the assumed requirements to do *anything*.

Allen

Rich, a lot of horses die from snake bites because a horse is so darned stupid, it'll stick its nose down to inspect the snake. The snake gets it in the nose, the breathing passages are affected, and (in Murphy's favorite Western milieu, not some danged Eastern suburbanopolis) they don't get to a vet in time.

There's probably a parallel to be drawn there, too, but I sure ain't going digging for it.

Allen

Rushed??? Hum-mm I thought they had been talking about this for years. I know I have been reading about it for what seems like years. But then perhaps 'rushed' like 'beauty' is in the eye of the beholder. Ya I know that didn't come out as well as I had expected.

As far as assumptions go, since I'm not on the Board nor a member of HMGS-E, I don't have a good handle on the data from which they made their assumptions. Those who agreed with the move said one thing and those who disagreed said other things. Since I don't have the data, I can't tell which is correct. I do suspect that neither was entirely objective. Therefore I must assume the data the Board has supports the move. Most people try to do the best they can with what they have, Board included.

Rich

Rich, a lot of horses die from snake bites because a horse is so darned stupid, it'll stick its nose down to inspect the snake. The snake gets it in the nose, the breathing passages are affected, and (in Murphy's favorite Western milieu, not some danged Eastern suburbanopolis) they don't get to a vet in time.

That's probably true for our manly snakes here in the West. But we're talking about sissified eastern snakes.

Rich

Considering that the "open" country around Timonium consists primarily of golf courses, I'm not sure where you'd get a horse bit by a sissified Eastern snake, anyway. But you've made your point. I will stipulate that sissified Eastern snakes are one aspect of the issue. Read that as you will.

Allen

Geez, Murph. I'm sorry you were so distraught by all of this discussion that you had to post a rant on Facebook.

Not distraught at all…just tired of the same old coming up, over and over again…and as you had stated I used some pretty strong language. I used the FB entry to get it out of my system and to keep from upsetting some folks delicate sensibilities…
I'm better now…

Unfortunately, I've had to block you there, 'cause you used some pretty bad language, and I don't want the kids reading stuff like that on my home page.

The post has been removed…so you don't have to worry.

Maybe you ought to ease off a little there, feller, and try recognizing that there are others who have some very legitimate concerns, instead of calling them the names you did.

A: I have eased off.
B: I have, HAVE recognized that there are "others" that have very legitimate concerns…as I have said previously I was not completely sold that this move was a good idea until I read the booklet and it convinced me. I understand their concerns, but when I ask questions such as "Can you name a suitable alternative location?" and not get an answer other than "What's wrong with keeping it at the Host?"…We've beat that horse to death over and over again.

Also Allen…I called NO ONE any names. I singled out NO ONE. I made NO DIRECT Personal Attacks. There were no individuals named, or identified on my post as to who I was talking about, so your post about me "calling people names" kind of lends thought to the idea that I did and THAT my friend, is false and a lie…..Tossing something out like that to insinuate that I am singling out people personally by name and individually…I would never have expected that from you.

Oh please post it here – it should be fun reading!

LIG…no…him posting it here would be a violation of FB.
Plus the fact that I removed it because of his kids.

Plus the fact that what I wrote on my FB is irrelavent, and if you really need to know, then basically the gist is that I am tired of the same old Historicon arguments…I'm tired of the "he said she said", I'm tired of the rumor mongering, and even with all the negativity…ya know what? I'm willling to give it a chance…

And LIG…needing something added here from my facebook is irrelevant to this discussion….

You called a group of people names, Murphy. That's a fact. I do not appreciate being called a liar. Your Facebook post was vicious and foul, and now you have conveniently expunged the evidence. Good for you.

Allen

I'll make you a deal – you tell us how many times you've been to Historicon and I'll tell you if I'm going.

Here we go again…
No..no deal…because the "how many times game" is getting old LIG…and as I have said before…my prior attendence to Historicon, or Nancon, or Apollocon, or Cold Wars, or Fall-In, Or RebelCon, or Aggiecon, Or Millenium, etc..etc..etc..et al…ad nauseum…is irrelevant to this argument…

I'm a paying member of HMGS-E – which gives me every right question what the organization does. Are you a member of HMGS-E?

Yes.
Then if you are having problems and want answers, WHY NOT EMAIL PETE YOURSELF?!?!?….

Besides, what makes you think that being in Baltimore is better? Remember – it's easier for you to get there, not everyone.

Ummm….LIG…if you are still in New York, then YOU ARE A HELL of a lot closer to Baltimore than I am, and its a lot easier for you to get there….
I'm in the midwest…much farther away…so please tell me how much easier it is for me to get there than you?

Secondly…Lets see…Baltimore is a MUCH easier travel hub to access that ummm…oh yeah..LANCASTER PENNSYLVANIA…

Now…If you want to start the "Baltimore argument" ONCE again…(using the dark arts of necromancy to bring THAT dead horse up from it's grave so you can beat it some more), then once again I will ask you what I did before…
"Can you name a suitable alternative for convention relocation?"

And no…"Why not keep it at the Host?" is NOT an acceptable answer….

Allen;
I'm not calling you a liar…I never have. The post you made insinuated to folks that I had made personal attacks.
But why did you even bring up what I wrote on my FB here then?

That's what I am saying.
And if you think I am calling you a liar, then I will apologize, because you are my friend and this is getting silly….

Murphy, if you're tired of reading about people's opinions that run contrary to yours, then you can choose not to read the topics that upset you.

Saying Allen's statement is being false is an attempt on splitting hairs with what I assume you actually wrote. You state no direct attack or naming, which one can infer means you probably made an indirect attack on no specific person, but rather a group here. As a participant on topics like this, I'm going to include myself in that group. Not having seen the FB post, but following what I'm reading here, I'd say Allen had you pegged on what you wrote, more than you're willing to admit and now you're back pedaling. No big deal. At the end of the day, It's just text on the internet.

In other words…don't tell me it's raining because I know better.

Goldwyrm…
In a way you are right.
And the facebook post was a way to vent my frustrations, (which a lot of times I do in writing), and by doing it on FB, I assumed (wrong of me I know), that it wouldn't somehow drift over here, because lord knows we don't need a full doghouse, or crap to go on…
That's why I apologized. I was wrong to Allen.
And I hope that Allen knows I didn't remove the post for covenience. He brought up that his kids had acces to his home page. I didn't know that. THATS why I removed it.
I've also apologized for my actions here and on another thread that I have started. Please feel free to check it.
And thanks Goldwyrm for being a voice of reason…

So it's a little silly to getting upset over some Space Marines and Orks at this late date.

As the Fall In PEL, or the Historicon 09 or Cold Wars 09 Events list amply demonstrates.

The real issue, as some have repeatedly pointed out despite the unwillingness of others to listen, is that the decision to move seems to have been made predicated on assumptions which are not demonstrably correct.

I think there remains a fairly large gulf as regards what constitutes demonstrably correct. Many of the pro move people are 100% certain to this date that the Host is overwhelmed by Historicon in that the air conditioning cannot handle 3,000+ in a Pennsylvania summer, the restrooms could pass for the Black Hole of Calcutta, Saturday parking involves another zip code and the mere fact that all Dealers can't fit in the Barn proves the point beyond a shadow of a doubt. The anti move folks point out that the Distelfink and some of the side rooms often have empty space, the restrooms aren't that bad, that most every Dealer gets in and that parking other than Saturday isn't that awful and they feel that proves conclusively that Historicon had not out grown the Host. Both are genuinely correct based on their perceptions and it is unfortunate in that to someone who sees the Distelfink 30% open at 8pm on a Saturday as absolute proof is not going to convince someone who views their friend the Dealer unable to get space as absolute proof that the Con must move.

Both sides should recognize genuine and correct points and concerns of the other. If the move makes Historicon too expensive, too hard to travel, too much hassle with loading/unloading or parking, too large or if they simply hate Baltimore in general, any and all reasons (except fear of crime which is just wussy and a bit racist) are legitimate. Equally, those that want to go, are excited by the new opportunities, look forward to the FOW or even GW tourneys (not me but someone), they are equally valid and it does not constitute drinking BOD kool aid to want to attend and want it to succeed wildly right there in Baltimore.

How the move was deployed is a legitimate point of contention although I give credit for dropping the bomb right prior to Cold Wars as clearly not ducking the issue. I heard discussion, filled out a survey and attended sessions for nearly two years talking about moving Hcon but it did seem that all of a sudden, bang, the move was a done deal. For those that are upset or disagree, as others have said, 180-200 votes will guarantee a seat on the BOD. What we should not do is break into squabbling camps and in a broader sense, kill the golden goose. I don't give a rat's ass about enlarging the hobby, recruiting or Heaven forfend, historic education. I want three good Cons a year and I'll support anyone that gives me that and vote accordingly.

Talk about a voice of reason! Hear, hear!

I would have to say that having 100 Warhammer tables will .

WARHAMMER is hardly something that inspires innovation or creativity.

Someone said that they will have a painting stall and that they do really good scenery. RUBBISH. They produce rubbish.
You can pick a Warhammer type scenery half a hall away in the dark. Paint all rock faces grey and dry brush them with white. WOW! That's instructive. Look around you when out for a drive. How many rock faces look grey with a dry brush of white? Not a whole lot really. Paint the ground green then put on green flock. WOAH! I guess there must be a lot of green earth somewhere on the planet, but I've never seen it. Warhammer terrain looks like the neatly done grass of a golf course as a result.

Snow? Why just touch a bit more white on. Everyone knows it doesn't bank up in some places or melt in others! Trees? Hey if we have to have some we'll get them from a railway shop, but we'd prefer not.

WARHAMMER terrain is usually just a load of geological and botanic rubbish. Too stereotyped to the ideas of the GW people. And . Nothing to inspire anyone there unless they are looking for another copied idea to copy!

Honestly people. It's commercial rubbish. The Junk Food of the wargames hobby….if it can really even be called a wargame. It's a kind of science fiction gone mad with strict lines of control to . It's the kind of thing that .

If there are to be 100 table areas of that rot at Historicon, then I'm afraid I have to say that it will be to the total detriment of the event. If it recruits anyone to the hobby it will only be .

They say a fool and his money are soon parted. That stuff is such junk, that when you see people handing over lots of money for it, you cannot help but wonder . It's so singular in what is gained from it, that its best described as .

Sure, the players have fun. I don't dispute that. But at the end of it all will go on to other types of wargaming, and when speaking of the ranks of the Warhammer faithful, .

If Historicon is to stick to its name it should be Historical.

Good grief!

I must say all this is very entertaining from a UK perspective.

So much venom.

Good grief!

I must say all this is very entertaining from a UK perspective.

So much venom.

Makes the Salute controversy the other year look like small potatoes doesn't it?

And no…"Why not keep it at the Host?" is NOT an acceptable answer….

Not acceptable to you – fine. Acceptable to many others. That's why I ask if you've been to Historicon – then you would have seen for yourself. Instead you've going on second hand info.

"Considering that the "open" country around Timonium consists primarily of golf courses, I'm not sure where you'd get a horse bit by a sissified Eastern snake, anyway."

Allen, there is a very nice horse farm near where the convention was held. I can take you over there sometime if you want. Also, that big thing just south of where the convention was held is a horse racing track.

Now I have not actually seen a snake there, but still…

Seems to me that the biggest complaint about the move is that people, most of whom probably did not even vote in any of the Board elections, are bent out of shape because they were not asked to vote on a new location, even though they probably would not have bothered to send in that ballot either. But because they personally were not "consulted" they choose to be insulted. A few have actually showed up to the member meeting since the decision, but were well hidden before the decision.

If HMGS had to have full member participation to make a decision, there would not be any conventions. Been to plenty of member meetings where they were scrambling to try and fine a few more members to sit in so they could have a meeting quorum. Been to more where no one could be bothered. So all this hand-wringing now seems a little hollow.

As far as the move, I am not thrilled about Baltimore (I was hoping the Gaylord in DC would have wised up, but no) I will be there unless something intervenes, just like I have at the last 10 (since we are keeping score on attendance).

GW at Timonium (which was not Historicon) I pretty much missed. Did buy their limited edition figure, but that is about it (and it took me 2 trips through the dealer hall to find them). They have been at the cons in Lancaster before and haven't managed to kill all the historical games yet.

The link to the Australian convention was interesting. Made me laugh about the awards as HMGS has NEVER had that problem. The friends of the Board NEVER win and the best games ALWAYS win the awards.

Also had to laugh about the complaint that the GW stuff only attracted kids. GW will be thrilled that they hit their demographic. To some it would be better if the hobby stayed gray and everyone eventually died off. Would solve the move and historical only problem at the same time.

The funniest part of all of this is nobody is going to change anyone's mind about attending. The people going will go. Those that have decided to sit out will (some in a huff, some will have found a justification to their desire to stay home, some for other reasons).

Complaining about the quality of GW terrain is funny too. Evidently they don't try as hard down under. I have seen some truly spectacular GW tables. Can say the same about the historicals. They run the entire range.

Not even going to touch the "not historical" thread. Too easy either way. I'll leave that for now to the rest of TMP.

GW setting up in the gargantuan BCC with 100 tables next to the 125 FOW tables will not even impact on the room for "historicals" or any of the other tournaments. If this were happening at the Host it might be a big deal, but at the BCC I doubt you will notice (I am dying to say one TMP person would but he has repeatedly stated he is not going in protest over the move – Reminds me of the song "Alone in My Priniciples!").

I think this whole argument highlights a typical American problem. We always worry about what other people are doing. Why do I care what game is at the next table, if I am enjoying my game that should be enough. Isn't it better to incorporate everybody. Can't we all just accept each other. Even amongst the "historical people", we argue what is really a historical game(ie. WAB, FOW). I just want to enjoy my hobby, not control someone elses. For the record, do not play alot of GW fantasy stuff anymore, but I do like their historicals. I have run Historical games at the last two Baltimore Gamesdays, and They were hapy I was there. In fact I have heard that others may start doing it as well. I am doing my cross-pollinating part. My advice go, play something you like, don't worry about anyone else, and have fun.

Jimmy, you sound far to rational to participate in this discussion.

And no…"Why not keep it at the Host?" is NOT an acceptable answer….

Not acceptable to you – fine. Acceptable to many others. That's why I ask if you've been to Historicon – then you would have seen for yourself. Instead you've going on second hand info.

But he used CAPITAL LETTERS. That makes his statement beyond dispute.
If it were not for that, I would agree with you. I for one WANT to keep it at the Host. My opinion is more valid than anybody else's because I am the OFM.