"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

The truth is I do think that this kind of thing is the best way to recruit people into the hobby so I don't think it is such a bad idea. But it is not how the move was justified. All we heard about was all the historical gamers who couldn't pack into the host and all the dozens and dozens of major dealers shut out. And all of the is bull.

Why didn't anyone say we want to move to a bigger venue so we can massively expand fantasy and SF games in the hopes of recruiting and gaining more exposure. You didn't hear that because a lot of people in HMGS would have objected seriously, so instead we heard a lot on silliness about bursting at the seams at the host when, in fact, attendance has been pretty flat for a while.

If there had been an honest debate about this I might have ended up in favor of a move, but still I would have wanted all the details and costs worked out in advanced and publicly disseminated.

I am sure that during the debate on the move that some members may have quoted the old saying that a bigger show is not always going to lead to a 'better' show.

This one is well under way and will continue to lead to good debates up until it is held and even afterwards.

"No one has answered the question on what GW is paying for the space."

Because it DOESN'T MATTER. They have been offered the tables because there is plenty of room. If 200 more people show up to play in them, then HMGS has been paid through their con entry fees and/or memberships, just like every other tournie. And as many have said, exposing at least some of those Fantasy and SF players to the wide variety of stuff we have at HMGS cons cannot possibly be a bad thing. I am another that was brought into Historical gaming through GW, though, so I suppose I am a bit biased as well.

Blue Devil 88 – Don't want to pick a fight, but James is not a rat! :) You should play a game with him sometime. You'll get a completely different impression. Very different from the "public HMGS" image. :)

"Why didn't anyone say we want to move to a bigger venue so we can massively expand fantasy and SF games in the hopes of recruiting and gaining more exposure."

Perhaps because that was NOT why they were doing the move? Why is everyone so sure that this GW decision was made before the actual one about changing venues? This could have been an opportunity that was offered to them later and they simply (for good or ill, obviously) took it. MAYBE they did plan it, but we don't know that at all, now do we? One thing is pretty much for sure; it will most likely help a lot to defray the larger costs the BCC will entail.

But I suppose a good paranoid fantasy about all these evil plans of the BOD is far more fun than dealing with facts (which yes, they should be more forthcoming with, but still…) or just seeing what happens. Me, I'll wait and see-- I think playing Henny Penny must be absolutely exhausting.

nazrat,

It does matter if the extra space costs more than what they are paying. No one has answered the question or shown the business case of what these extra people do for the convention. Also many of the people in the tournament will be current attendees. (yes like you there are many who play historical, Scifi and Fantasy).

I happily play Sci-fi and Fantasy games. However, I can understand Historical only gamers feeling betrayed that their mostly historical convention is being morphed into something they don't want and didn't intend their dues to be used for.

HMGS Membership dues went up a few years ago for several reasons and one of the reasons would be to build up the reserve for a move to a large venue when needed. For dyed in the wool historical gamers their contributions being used to subsidize hosting a GW convention within their own convention is an issue. Perhaps the more expensive venue of Baltimore was not the right venue for moving Historicon if there is so much extra space available to be given away.

I wonder how folks would feel if this was a YuGiOh, Magic the Gathering Tournament, or cat convention? The cat convention of course paid separately for its space in Lancaster that one year.

It didn't bother me a bit that the cat convention was there, Mark. It had no effect on my enjoyment of the con, even as the GW presence at Historicon won't, either. I just won't go in there if I don't want to see it.

But I will… 8)=

HistoriGAMAgorkiCON 2010

Not so much bothered per se by the GW off in a neighboring … but all those s lugging their stuff in for their tournament will make it that much more crowded for historical gamers trying to offload their stuff at the curb.

What is the net profit on GW admissions after subtraction of the actual cost of the space & table rental?

What is the net profit to GW on their tournament fee? Yea, 100%…

If the HMGS per person profit is not substantially greater -- like 5x greater -- than the GW corporate profit, then objections should be raised.

Well at least the GW presence will not be urinating in the hallways like some of the cat convention pets did.

Well at least the GW presence will not be urinating in the hallways like some of the cat convention pets did.

You sure about that?? Only kidding….

It is interesting that the first historical convention I attended was Timonium, specifically because there was a large GW presence (my being a primarily GW tabletop gamer).

Since that experience, with walking around, seeing all the historical armies (nicely painted on the tabletop), visiting the huge vendor areas and seeing all the cool stuff available, I have attended most of the Historicon/Cold Wars cons at Gettysburg/Lancaster.

I've also since started playing WAB, Might and Reason, Blue Sky/Red Sun, and other historical games/eras. So it was the GW presence that drew me to the con, and it was the con itself that lured me into the historical side of gaming.

While there might be space to be 'given out', I don't see the benefit of having a tourny at Historicon for GW. I think it highly unlikely that GW is going to 'draw away' historical gamers to sci-fi/fantasy, but more likely, historicals will draw away GW players. They will be exposed to other games, other miniatures companies, other rules, and get to see those games in action.

I stopped attending the Games Days that GW had in Baltimore because of the $40+ dollar entry fee, the lack of good content, and the cost of parking/tolls/food to get from Philadelphia to Baltimore.

I will unlikely attend Historicon when it moves to Baltimore for the same reason. Too far to drive, too expensive when you add up all the costs. Usually I just go (to Historicon) to look at tables, and visit the vendor areas, which I could justify at the other venues.

While some of hte accusations may seem tin foil hat level, one of the problems with the whole move was the Lack of an open and free discussion PRIOR to the decision. The decison is made and subsequent things may seem like they are tied into the decision due to the lack of prior communication. I share the concern that my dues will pay for space that goes to GW profit. The Historicon 09 presentation talked about the convention center space being scalable to whatever we needed – therfore any additional space SEEMS like it will come at a higher cost. If the impact is 200 GW gamers beyond other attendance, that seems minor. I am not a tournamnet player, have never played in one, nor will I ever play in one. There is no benefit for me in this – I just hope the exposure to other games sparks interest in some ofhte new folks.

I am not in favor of the Baltimore experiment. I will attend and run games and give it a shot- I hope it works and then returns to the Host.

I think that nearly everyone wants a larger convention,

Niot necessarily. I do not. I was happy with it the size it was.
I fail to see why "bigger than last year!" is a definition of improvement. Or, for that matter, why "improvement" is actually needed.
"Ahah!" you say. "The OFM is advocating stagnation!" Yes, I am. Why is growth good?

No other Fantasy or sci Fi games or tournaments pay extra for not being historical so why should GW? I'm not defending them (I hate the company myself) The space was already rented{However misguided that decision was), got to pay for that place somehow.Might as well take the GW players money,I'm sure it's green too.
Please note I am against the move and won't be going to Hcon but GW and non historical games don't bother me( I and most of my gaming club came to historicals thru GW) at all.Like I said ,the money is needed and green.

Overall, this thread is pretty fun in a goofy la-la-la-can't-hear-you kind of way. But the Napoleonic thread is ahead 3 to 2 in the number of canine incarcerations generated, so you guys need to try harder!

200 GW tables equals (at least) 400 potential GW gamers

Think of the Historical Gaming recruitment possibilities?

For those who are going, run nice games, and make em look great!!

Chuck

I am not in favor of the Baltimore experiment. I will attend and run games and give it a shot- I hope it works and then returns to the Host.

For those who are going, run nice games, and make em look great!!

I think that may be some of the more succinct, rational and mature statements I've seen on the topic. Thank you gentlemen.

But I suppose a good paranoid fantasy about all these evil plans of the BOD is far more fun than dealing with facts (which yes, they should be more forthcoming with, but still…) or just seeing what happens. Me, I'll wait and see-- I think playing Henny Penny must be absolutely exhausting

I think that the BoD needs to be up front with the direction that they want HCon to take. If you want to bring in SciFi and Fantasy, do so. Just don't bill this as a Historical convention.

Personally, I'm disappointed. We've gotten so many mixed messages about this con that it's disgusting.

If the BoD and the organizers were so proud that they attracted the GW tournament, why wasn't there any kind of formal announcement? I would think bringing another 200 new people into the hobby is good news – wouldn't you?

Don't get me wrong – I like GW. I think they have done great things for this hobby. But DON'T bill this as a HISTORICAL miniatures gaming society. Call a spade a spade.

Ak47 Republic, Flames of War, Pulp, Starfleet Battles, Zombies, Horror, Pirates, Cowboy Zombies, Board Games, (Formual De, Cataan, etc)…
Wow…LIG if we go by your definition of HISTORICAL, then this would be a MIGHTY SMALL CONVENTION indeed…

By the way, What exactly "IS" your definition of HISTORICAL, so we allllll can see where HMGS is failing you???

Wait..I just took a look at what you play on your Profile…

Warhammer Ancient Battles…

Okay..so exactly HOW "historical" is this?….from what I have read "not very"….but I may be wrong…

You should be rejoicing! Your parent company is going to be there!!!!

"200 GW tables equals (at least) 400 potential GW gamers"

When did the jump from 100 GW tables to 200 GW tables occur.

"Okay..so exactly HOW "historical" is this?….from what I have read "not very"….but I may be wrong…"

Watch it, bub.

Allen

Wait, can I ask; by what stretch of the imagination would Flames of War not be historical? Zombies and vampires I agree, dumb, but a WWII game?

"If the BoD and the organizers were so proud that they attracted the GW tournament, why wasn't there any kind of formal announcement? I would think bringing another 200 new people into the hobby is good news – wouldn't you?"

Absolutely! They SHOULD be putting out more announcements and being far more forthcoming about everything. But they aren't. Unfortunately that's just the way they do business right now and no amount of complaining will change it. And in the grand scheme of things all this stuff that causes so much hand wringing from some quarters JUST DOESN'T MATTER. Not a bit. The con will still happen and those that go will almost certainly have a great time. If none of us had any idea of ANY of the Board's actions the con would still be fun and if it is a financial success all the better.

If all this foofarrah does cause HMGS to fail (and I do not believe it will) then something else will eventually take it's place. Nothing lasts forever, things change, too bad so sad, and death and taxes still suck. Nothing about this is worthy of anger, disgust, and ANY of the screaming and yelling and upset that it seems to be causing in some members-- many of whom have stated from the beginning that they won't go to the Baltimore con no matter what and some who haven't even attended in years, or ever(!).

I guess we can just wait until the 50 people who DO vote put in another Board that the rest of the membership can then continue to castigate… until the NEXT election when we can start the whole sordid affair all over again.

It's a GAME CONVENTION with lots of little toy men, folks. Don't take your fun so seriously. Life will go on, win or lose.

On the other hand, Murphy has a point. A brief scan of the upcoming Fall In PEL suggests that the historical purity of the HMGS cons may have already been compromised:

PDF link

Some may dearly wish to believe in Paris Hilton's virginity, but that doesn't make it so.

Allen

"Wait, can I ask; by what stretch of the imagination would Flames of War not be historical? Zombies and vampires I agree, dumb, but a WWII game?"

I agree with you completely, but in the name of sanity let's not go there! This thread is contentious enough as it is. 8)=

"Wait, can I ask; by what stretch of the imagination would Flames of War not be historical? Zombies and vampires I agree, dumb, but a WWII game?"

It's the same mentality that says WAB is not historical. Clearly, the issue is popularity: if a game is popular, it must not be based on history.

And how many times does Battletech appear in the Fall In PEL?

Allen

The general gist seems to be:

I have sprayed my territory with special XXXL Historical Wargamers Musk.

My toys with pointy and shooty things are serious.

Your toys with (very large, admittedly) pointy and shooty things are not.

You are not allowed to cross into my marked territory, and if your dice roll into it, I'll bury them out back because you lack the seriousness particular to basement mold…

Now… where was I… oh, yes…"How can an Irish Amazon Steam Tripod with a 10lb Parrot only get a +2, who wrote these rules! I'm going to go in a huff until I get my way…." See, seriousness in action.

Wait..I just took a look at what you play on your Profile…

Warhammer Ancient Battles…

Okay..so exactly HOW "historical" is this?….from what I have read "not very"….but I may be wrong…

You should be rejoicing! Your parent company is going to be there!!!!

Ahh Murphy… Good to see you again. You've so much to offer for a person that has been to… how many Historicons?? I forget ;)

I personally define Historicals as armies that have a basis in history. A loose definition, I agree. What is your definition?

Like I said earlier, I like GW. They've done allot of good for the hobby in general. If the BoDs feel they need to have a GW tournament at Historicon, so be it. Out if the 100 tables, why didn't they step up and offer to assist with the WAB tournament?

I'd like to understand how we can continue to bill this as a historical convention. I'd also like to understand why Panzari told me he wants to throttle back on selling GW and fantasy related items at Historicon and then we have a GW tournament present (yes, there are other that heard the conversation). When I see him at the next meeting, I will bring that up.

As for WAB not being too historical, what are you basing that statement on? I've read Hannibal, Alexander the Great and Beyond the Golden Gate, and I see there is allot of research and factual information that went into these books.

Enjoy!

LIG

"I'd also like to understand why Panzari told me he wants to throttle back on selling GW and fantasy related items at Historicon and then we have a GW tournament present…"

He may have felt that way, but he is only one member of the Board after all.

Personally I think trying to limit Dealers in what they can try to sell is idiotic at best. GW sells, even at a "Historical" convention. 'Nuff said.

Good comments Nazrat – if you'll allow me to respond…

Absolutely! They SHOULD be putting out more announcements and being far more forthcoming about everything. But they aren't. Unfortunately that's just the way they do business right now and no amount of complaining will change it.

I don't agree at all. At the next board meeting, I'll be there. I'll continue to ask more questions as to why business is conducted the way it is. I'm not one to sit back and go with the flow.

If all this foofarrah does cause HMGS to fail (and I do not believe it will) then something else will eventually take it's place. Nothing lasts forever, things change, too bad so sad, and death and taxes still suck. Nothing about this is worthy of anger, disgust, and ANY of the screaming and yelling and upset that it seems to be causing in some members-- many of whom have stated from the beginning that they won't go to the Baltimore con no matter what and some who haven't even attended in years, or ever(!).

I agree wholeheartedly. There is no success or failure that is permanent. I've said from the onset I wouldn't go to Baltimore. I don't like the town and the surrounding area. But my main concern is that when I ask how we came to the decision to move to Baltimore, I never get a straight answer. I had one board member tell me he could take me to an area in New Orleans where I would be killed in 10 mins! My response was to ask him to stand in line – I have that affect on allot of people :). I don't hate anyone or wish ill towards anyone. But I'm not about to sit down and take this.

All I ever asked for was an honest answer and number to back up the facts. All I ever get is a bunch of chest pounding. Until I get facts (and as long as I'm a member in good standing), I'm going to keep asking questions.

He may have felt that way, but he is only one member of the Board after all.

Personally I think trying to limit Dealers in what they can try to sell is idiotic at best. GW sells, even at a "Historical" convention. 'Nuff said.

Do you think we have a board that is divided?

The question's been asked several times "What's in it for HMGS if GW attends?" and (at least in spirit) "Why is GW getting all that free table space for a non-historical tournament?". It seems to me (and I think at least one poster already asked about this) that if all of the GW tournament attendees pay their normal registration fees to attend – be it as members (in which case they've just continued or started a dues-paying revenue flow), non-member weekenders, or day trippers, that's what's in it for HMGS (aside from the obvious exposure of non-historical gamers to the the historical side of things) – the convention attendee revenue. That would seem to justify the use of tables by GW pretty handily. GW seems to be heavily into pre-registering for their tourneys, don't they? Which is to say, however many GW tournament players there are, a majority at least will likely be people who'd not otherwise show up at Hcon10. The table space is what was used to "lure" those otherwise non-attendees to our convention and to expose them (see Phil D's post above about FI03) to the historical side of things. Regardless of whether I like WHF or WH40K (I don't), this seems worthwhile especially if the space is available with apparently no impact on other (historical) events.

If GW tournament attendees are being let in on a special reduced-rate pass (e.g. at FI03/Timonium many first-timers were let in on a special $5 USD day pass, just to get them in the door to see what HMGS was about), one may want to start looking at cost/benefit re: whether it's worth it, but that's a (slightly) different matter.

Bill

"At the next board meeting, I'll be there. I'll continue to ask more questions as to why business is conducted the way it is. I'm not one to sit back and go with the flow."

Fall In, Saturday, 0800, Membership Sensing Session:

PDF link

Anyone going to take notes?

Allen

aecurtis wrote:

"200 GW tables equals (at least) 400 potential GW gamers"

When did the jump from 100 GW tables to 200 GW tables occur.

Whoops! My memory was wrong (100 tables, not 200), but only by a multiple of x2 – if the horrible very bad predictions about Historicon Losses are only off by that much, then HMGS-E may be saved!

Chuck

"I don't agree at all. At the next board meeting, I'll be there. I'll continue to ask more questions as to why business is conducted the way it is. I'm not one to sit back and go with the flow."

Oops, I should have said, "…no amount of complaining HERE will change it."
Of COURSE going to the meeting and talking directly to the Board Members will be more effective in some small way. Sorry about that. Amazing what one word can do…

"Do you think we have a board that is divided?"

I really have no idea, nor do I really care. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and suggesting other possible reasons for Pete saying what he did and something else happening. Heck, he might have just been saying whatever he thought you wanted to hear for all I know. 8)=

Thanks, Chuck. I thought I had missed something!

Allen

Maybe those of you who disagree with the venue change / GW presence could protest outside the hall with placards and a loud hailer?

"Maybe those of you who disagree with the venue change / GW presence could protest outside the hall with placards and a loud hailer?"

Sure, just when you see Officer Rivieri coming---RUN!!!

YouTube link

And please, in the name of all that's holy, no chants of "Take your shirt off" with a bunch of HMGS purists, OK?

YouTube link

Thank you.

Allen

Ahh Murphy… Good to see you again. You've so much to offer for a person that has been to… how many Historicons?? I forget ;)

You forget because of two things:
1: I never told you.
2: It's irrelevant to the discussion.

You seem to have this idea LIG, that your attendance record of Historicons is to be held in awe by the rest of us here and when we disagree with you, or question you, you bring it up yet again.
So you've been to a lot of historicons before, what do you want, a medal?

I've attended over 100 conventions in my life, and I don't spout it off, or use it to try to impress anyone. Most of all, I don't think it makes me an expert on anything convention-wise except, where and how to find the bar and the bathrooms…

If you think this way LIG, then WHY haven't you run for a board position on HMGS and worked your magic there to change it (in your POV), "for the better?"

I personally define Historicals as armies that have a basis in history. A loose definition, I agree. What is your definition?

Okay, so then by your "loose" definition we can eliminate ALL SCI-Fi Games, Horror Games, Pulp Games, Weird War II games, Monster smash em up games, Steampunk-Steampulp games, "Alternative What if?" games….etc…
Wow, so now we have a MUCH smaller convention and fewer people…well…looks like with that definition you can have it back at the host or even a smaller venue, because you just lost a HELL OF A LOT of people/players/GM's/Dealers, etc…

Like I said earlier, I like GW. They've done allot of good for the hobby in general. If the BoDs feel they need to have a GW tournament at Historicon, so be it. Out if the 100 tables, why didn't they step up and offer to assist with the WAB tournament?

Good question. Have you asked the fine folks at GW this? I haven't seen any posting here that shows you have…I have seen you slamming the HMGS Bod etc…for this and the supposed "bait and switch"…

I'd like to understand how we can continue to bill this as a historical convention. I'd also like to understand why Panzari told me he wants to throttle back on selling GW and fantasy related items at Historicon and then we have a GW tournament present (yes, there are other that heard the conversation). When I see him at the next meeting, I will bring that up.

Pete is one person…he doesn't rule by decree. What he'd like to do, and what actually happens are usually two different animals.

As for WAB not being too historical, what are you basing that statement on? I've read Hannibal, Alexander the Great and Beyond the Golden Gate, and I see there is allot of research and factual information that went into these books.

Never said it wasn't, but if I were to argue this it would be one word…points…

LIG, I respect your opinion, (even though for some reason you seem not to have respected mine in previous debates past and resorted to verbally insulting me), so I am going to ask these simple questions to you…

1: So GW shows up and runs a lot of additional games at the con…what harm is there?

2: If you are NOT a member of the HMGS BOD/etc…or working on organizing this convention, WHY are you wringing your hands over whether or not this should be considered a "historical" convention anymore?

3: Since we chatted offline in PM's a while back and you apologized for your previous actions, and you even said that you would "Give it a chance", what's the main beef? Why not just say "Okay, let's see how it plays and see what happens as a result?", or are you backsliding?

I'd suggest painting yourself green and screaming WAAAGH a lot in the front as a more dynamic form of protest.

It'll be very in character. ;)

One.

"points…"

Nonsense. On your second visit to Historicon, why don't you go up to the DBA and DBM and DBMM and FoG and Might of Arms and Warrior and Ancient Warfare or Clash of Arms or Crusader or Impetus players and tell them they ain't historical 'cos their games and tournaments use points?

And that's just the ancients players…

Allen

Allen…
Cuz I don't wanna waste my time…and we all know how you old folks get…

Murph – I never said I didn't respect your opinion.

You seem to have this idea LIG, that your attendance record of Historicons is to be held in awe by the rest of us here and when we disagree with you, or question you, you bring it up yet again.
So you've been to a lot of historicons before, what do you want, a medal

You're commenting on moving a specific convention. You've attended hundreds of others, so then you know each convention is different. How can you comment on moving without attending it? Isn't that going on second hand information?

Okay, so then by your "loose" definition we can eliminate ALL SCI-Fi Games, Horror Games, Pulp Games, Weird War II games, Monster smash em up games, Steampunk-Steampulp games, "Alternative What if?" games….etc…
Wow, so now we have a MUCH smaller convention and fewer people…well…looks like with that definition you can have it back at the host or even a smaller venue, because you just lost a HELL OF A LOT of people/players/GM's/Dealers, etc…

OK – so then what should be the definition of a Historical convention? I never said my definition was perfect – just a starting point. Do you think that this is a historical convention with 100 table put aside for Fantasy, 40K and LoTR?

Good question. Have you asked the fine folks at GW this? I haven't seen any posting here that shows you have…I have seen you slamming the HMGS Bod etc…for this and the supposed "bait and switch"…

Why would I ask the GW folks when the BoD is ultimately responsible for what is being played at the convention?

Since we chatted offline in PM's a while back and you apologized for your previous actions

Yes, I did apologize for personally insulting you. I'm still sorry for that. How am I insulting you here?

I'm confused by the boards actions. When we try to understand why the decision was made to move to Baltimore we get a different answer and a song and dance. Show me numbers and figures. I'm a paying member of HMGS-E, in good standing, and I'm owed at least an explanation – even if I'm not on the BoD.

"How can you comment on moving without attending it? Isn't that going on second hand information?"

A fair question, that, and it's a pretty funny one, too. How can one seriously ask Murphy this when almost every bit of the protests, criticisms, and general cacaphonic caca that has been written here on TMP about the move has been based on second hand (or worse, assumed and/or made-up) information?

Seems to me Murph is every bit as in the know as the rest of us who HAVE attended any number of Historicons… 8)=

Just a simple question. True, there has been misinformation on both sides. So you should jump into a discussion without first hand information?

Now where's the fun in that?

Hehehehe. Good one. :)

LIG you said:

Just a simple question. True, there has been misinformation on both sides. So you should jump into a discussion without first hand information?

And speaking or irony…might I remind you of the wording of your original post?

I heard from someone that GW will have roughly 100 tables at Baltimore. Has anyone else heard this rumor?