"GW Tables at Historicon??" Topic

Good evening

I heard from someone that GW will have roughly 100 tables at Baltimore. Has anyone else heard this rumor? This was the same person that told me at Historicon 08 that Baltimore was a done deal.

It is their home turf.

100 tables? thats a lot of tables .

I have heard that as well, and I wouldnt classify it as a rumor…

Wow Historigins Games Day, here we come!!! Now I understand how they're able to pay for this and "promote the hobby"!

No Comment but I am glad I am not going if thier presence will be so strong in the dealer room.

The dealer will be interesting after the show if they do get 100 tables. That was almost 1/3 of the total tables of old Historicon and 1/4 of the newer dealer room with the additonal space in nooks, corners and underground.

Not dealer tables, game tables…

I wonder who on the BOD has lots of GW stock.

Man, this BoD will forever be known as the ones that sold Histroicon down the river!!

FoxFoxFox, watch out – your minis might conflict with GW and they may ask you to leave – like they did to another dealer.

Mattes, was this what you had in mind with your "Move Historicon Now" buttons?

Well if it is true, then that relationship if managed properly could help defray the costs of the move and allow some cross-pollination. That's not a bad thing in my opinion, but then again I like mixed genre game conventions.

From those who heard this- is GW paying for tables like other hobby dealers and manufacturers OR is GW covering the facility cost for their percentage of square footage, OR something else?

So, at what point/percent/number of "orkified" tables does Historicon stop being historical, and succumb to the force of Fantasy games?

It's the End of Days!
O Tempora o mores!

Our club will be in our bunker (my basement) that weekend, drinking beer and palying something HUGE.
We will thus avoid Polution.

I see a lot of WAB players at Historicon. I don't know how many tables they use, though. Can't say I see any Warhammer games.

Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

Well if it is true, then that relationship if managed properly could help defray the costs of the move and allow some cross-pollination. That's not a bad thing in my opinion, but then again I like mixed genre game conventions

I generally don't mind, but when I spoke with Panzari, he wanted to tighten down on the GW dealers in the dealer room!!

Don't get me wrong – I like GW. I think they have done great things for this hobby. But DON'T bill this as a HISTORICAL miniatures gaming society. Call a spade a spade.

I don't like GW and would consider this presence at HISTOIcon to be an atrocity but then, I'm already freaked by the move to Baltimore. No longer being a member of HMGS East I don't really have a right to complain but I just did. Onward through the Fog!

Actually I heard HMGS E has secretly tampered with the H1N1 vaccine supply…

apparently it will make you think the BCC is great, Fantasy gaming is acceptable at any convention, and GW is not such a bad company, really.

Step into the light……….

oh, never mind

Lol. I don't have any problem with Fantasy and SF games at the conventions. Never have. But I thought historical gamers were going to sprout from seedlings and drop from the trees and trek across the tundra…all drawn to the majesty that is Baltimore Hcon. Seems odd that there is now a need for a mass influx of the very fantasy gamers to try and keep the thing out of the abyss.

It is going to be fun to watch this.

I've got several GW armies, but I don't want to see any of them at Historicon. The "H" in "HMGS" does stand for "Historical", right? Maybe it stands for "Hormagaunts" afterall? :)

Okay, let's all take a deep breath and run madly in circles waving our arms screaming "The sky is falling, the SKY is falling!"

Feel better?

This is starting to remind me of Timonium. Anyone remember the main part of the game room being mostly fantasy games? I remember the reaction then was not good, and I assume the reaction would be the same now.

I don't have a problem with fantasy or sci-fi games. I just choose not to play them, its not my thing. I do have a problem with an organization that is promoting Historical gaming turning over a large portion of the program to that type of gaming though.

This just keeps making my decision easier and easier. Fall-In and Cold Wars will be the two conventions I go to for Historical Gaming. Maybe I will check out Origins next summer if Historicon is going to follow in that path. Its much closer.

>>> Okay, let's all take a deep breath and run madly in circles waving our arms screaming "The sky is falling, the SKY is falling!"

I'm confused. Is it OK to scream "WAAAAAaaaaaaaggggghhhh!" while doing that, or not?

>>> Feel better?

Tremendously, and entertained beyond all expectations. This ride just doesn't stop, does it?

Allen

Warhammer Ancient Battles – Wargaming in the ancient world; Trafalgar – Gaming in the Age of Sail; The Great War – Gaming in World War I; Legends of the Old West – Skirmish gaming in the old west; Legends of the High Seas – Skirmish gaming on the high seas; English Civil War – Gaming during the English Civil War; Warmaster Ancients – Small scale gaming in the ancient world.

Last time I looked GW was a little broader than Warhammer, LotR, and 40K. But I guess that doesn't matter if all your trying to do is sell your point of view.

GW will be running a 200 player WH40K tournament at HISTORICON 2010. That is 100 tables at 5x6 ft end to end in long rows. That is not 100 tables of the general gaming space. At BCC there is sufficient space to do this (and the FoW national tournament -- 125 tables) without an impact on space needs for general gaming or existing HISTORICON tournaments.

Duncan Adams
Events Manager
HISTORICON 2010

Duncan, no insult to you but…..

HISTORIGINS GAME DAY, here it comes!! BOHICA!!

Last time I looked GW was a little broader than Warhammer, LotR, and 40K. But I guess that doesn't matter if all your trying to do is sell your point of view.

Who's point of view are we trying to sell??? ;)

Hang on Allen – if the rest of what I heard is true (and some of it has already been confirmed), you're in for quite a ride!

All,

To clarify things a bit more.

GW will be running 3 tournaments at HISTORICON 2010, all of which will take up a total of 100 tables (5x6 tables), which will not take away from any space normally used for historical games (i.e., no historical games will be harmed or turned away due to the GW tourneys!) The tournaments and the percentage of the 100 tables they will use will be WH40K (about 50%), WFB (about 40%) and LoTR (about 10%).

Additionally, GW will offer a terrain workshop, showing attendees how to make terrain and other related tips (since they do make some great terrain). A number of GW staff will be running historical games as well; one in the works (tentative right now, as they are painting furiously!) is a huge 25mm Napoleonic game.

GW will not be selling in the vendor area as a company (they know others already carry their products there now).

Lastly, due to GW's tournaments, we will thus be promoting HISTORICON via the entire GW promotional avenues as we get closer to the convention (i.e., to about 30,000 gamers via their e-newsletters, a 1-page flier sent with any adverts in product GW ships to customers directly, and an advert or two in the White Dwarf magazine.) [Select GMs from HMGS will also be organized to run a number of all-historical games using the various Warhammer style historical rules at Games Day as a club in August 2010, with promotional material for all of our shows as well as for HISTORICON 2011.]

This indeed will help introduce the HISTORICON information (i.e., promote) to a large number of miniature gamers, who quite possibly might decide to check out HISTORICON even for the day (after all, HISTORICON 2010 will be at the same place GW's Games Day is located, so their gamers are already use to how to get there, etc.)

Again, no space will be taken away from any historical games at HISTORICON; we have the space to add/expand what we can do at the BCC, and with what GW can offer via promotions to largest group of miniature hobby gamers that we can reach outside of our own database, this should be a nice venture.

Sincerely,
Bob Giglio, Convention Director – HISTORICON

Bob, thanks for some direct information. I asked a question or two earlier that perhaps you can answer.

Beyond the soft factors you describe in promotion and terrain workshops, what is GW's financial contribution (in general terms) for this partnership?

For example- Are they covering the prorated square footage costs for the space they are using? Are they covering the cost of their tables, if that is an extra cost? Are the GW tournament players paying the same non-member entry costs a historical player not affiliated with HMGS is paying?

So should we consider this just a miniatures convention, like Origins or Gencon? How can we justify this as a historical convention? My concern is that Historicon (and HMGS E) is losing it's focus and is trying to compete with Origins and Gencon.

Oh, one last question. Will the staff dress like Space Marines to make the GW guys feel welcome?

Bummer. I was hoping that after Hawaii in 2010 (this will be 30 years anniversary/first honeymoon) I could catch my first Historicon in 2011. Guess not.

Gracias,

Glenn

Wow, the fox is not only being let into the henhouse, but welcomed in.

Has any GW partnership ever benefited anyone other than GW? No GW historic lines just 40k and Fantasy means that the historics have to compete with the flash and sizzle of the GW marketing arm. If the unstated goal of having GW at Historicon was to transition new players from space marines to historics it may be prudent to consider new players flowing the other way. . .

If GW was brought on board to just balance the books then I can't help but feel that this was a really short sighted move. Instead of an opportunity to show players that there is a world outside of the GW universe; Historicon could again be an arena where the new, casual gamer leaves feeling 'Hey, why bother with things like research--who cares about uniforms, ranges, or OOB--I can paint these guys whatever I think is cool and just go throw dice!' Losing that idealogical battle on your home turf, at your signature event even, isn't a risk I'd be willing to take.

My two cents.

Wow, Historigins here we come.

Is this being done because it worked so well at Timonium?

Glenn,

I enjoy my gaming, but I'll take hawaii over Hcon any day!

"Has any GW partnership ever benefited anyone other than GW?"

It has benefitted a huge number of stores and painting services, if you call that a partnership. And I'd imagine that WAY more people get into historicals through GW than people get into GW through historicals.

The argument that it will dilute the historical nature of the convention is very true, as a vendor you would be hard pressed to not try to shift product towards catering to the GW fans to some degree, but it will certainly bring in new and fresh faces.

Since the roar is deafening about all the zombies, Victorian Sci-fi, Star Wars and BSG games at Historicon, and the other cons, I have no problem with GW showing up. Seems like they are making the effort to cover all the bases, including doing historicals. I guess people would be happier if they could complain about all the empty space available to HMGS if they did not show. Now at least that crowd can complain about GW showing up, with all their fans to spend money, maybe get exposed to a historical game, and possibly play those too. Horrors! I vaguely remember me getting pulled into historicals almost the same way.

Now, back to running in circles screaming. Carry on.

Though many many gamers play Historical, ahistorical, fantasy and SciFi, the conflict between historical slanted and fantasy-SciFi dominated conventions is decades old.

Historical gamers did not fire the first shot, they did. back in the 1970s most SciFi/Fantasy conventions prohibited or limited the amount of historical games that could be played. Even now I have gone to a few that 'allow' historical gaming but are limited in number, space and suffer from a lack of promotion. As a result a large numebr of small and regional historically oriented conventions popped up.

Despite the dark empires of the past , GW is viewed as the BIG BAD WOLF of the present. To help pay for site cost and to raise attendance numbers, numerous initially historical oriented conventions began to allow the Big Bad Wolf to dress in sheep's clothing.

Now according to some, it looks like the Big bad Wolf is inside and getting ready to eat the three pigs (or are they board members), grandma (venders??) little Red Riding Hood (the gamers).

Not really a surprise. has anyone seen that WAB at game days. I have heard that it is hard to get a WAB game allowed at a game day in a lot of places. Just a rumor, I bet.

"Warhammer Ancient Battles – Wargaming in the ancient world; Trafalgar – Gaming in the Age of Sail; The Great War – Gaming in World War I; Legends of the Old West – Skirmish gaming in the old west; Legends of the High Seas – Skirmish gaming on the high seas; English Civil War – Gaming during the English Civil War; Warmaster Ancients – Small scale gaming in the ancient world."

Oddly enough, you can't buy any of these in a GW store.

Folks,

I like to take shots at GW like everyone else but are we taking ourselves a bit too seriously here?

All of what we do (outside of the historical research that goes into our planning) is basically fantasy. We have Spartans fight Aztecs to see "what if." We are pretending (dare I say 'role playing') that we are generals leading troops in various conflicts. We fight toy soldier battles that in no way simulate the horrible reality of actual warfare. Some of us even think that our Old Guard troops are basically Space Marines and are taller, stronger, and smarter than everyone else.

I am happily guilty of all of the above. I too prefer historical battles for the most part but the last Historicon I attended saw me playing two DBA events (Fanatsy?), a wonderful Walt O'Hara race game, and a fantastic Howard Whitehouse dino hunt.

Bob and Duncan have kindly explained that the presence of the evil empire will not take away from historical gaming space. GW will be bringing in 100s of kids who might at least walk by and ask us old farts about our games (who knows they might even realize that Old Glory sells figs that look a lot like their Empire troops for a fraction of the cost).

Finally, in case I have not ed everyone off already, can anything be more fantasy than Flames of War? I guarantee there will be more Tiger II's at Historicon than the German Army ever built! So, how many points did Hitler have at the Battle of the Bulge :~)

Give it a chance guys and lets all try to take ourselves a little less seriously!

John

We have kept our precious bodily fluids pure long enough.
It's time to grow up and start using dirty needles and hanging around in "those" kinds of bars.

RudyNelson: So now we are supposed to hold a grudge because back in the 70's before I ever went to a convention, some fantasy based convention turned away historical games? We are starting to sound like some geographically challenged residents of distant lands, who are still upset that someone from the other tribe offed someone in their village in 1620.

John Adkins WV: Amen. Every time it is brought up about the GW games being played at Historicon I have to wonder how often the Romans fought the Aztecs, or any one of the similar battles being fought in the tournament area.

GW won't have their own dealer area. So people are now supposed to freak out because some dealer might carry more GW stuff this time?

Plus most of the people who are complaining about GW showing up are the same people who have already stated they are not going to Historicon in Baltimore anyway, so why do they care?

Are they going to have a limited edition figure available like they did at Timonium? That is the question.

Rudy says:

Not really a surprise. has anyone seen that WAB at game days. I have heard that it is hard to get a WAB game allowed at a game day in a lot of places. Just a rumor, I bet.

Rudy is correct. The late WHH manager, Rob Broom tried to get WAB played at Games Day Toronto a few years back, but in general, WAB is absent from GW events.

John says:

All of what we do (outside of the historical research that goes into our planning) is basically fantasy.

John, what you say is totally correct. However, you miss one thing. We were "sold" that we needed new room to grow. We were "sold" that a big box, sterile, convention center venue would make the historical gamers come out of the woodwork, the airports and the light transit system. We were "sold" that by having the Con at a major eastern seaboard city/tourist center we would have "walk-ins" expanding our ranks. Now I wonder that Baltimore is not just close to Glen Burnie, US GW corporate HQ.

Personally, I don't care, as I came to historical gaming from GW games. But I think this "extra room for our gaming" sales ploy was a bait and switch tactic.

Ralph

My early questions that I hope will be answered on how/if GW is paying their share of con expense was rooted in the premise that HMGS members who pay to support their idea of "hobby" won't be happy subsidizing something they don't like or that they believe dilutes or diminishes the efforts of their group. I'm speaking in terms of the other demographic represented by several gaming friends who would view this development as anathema. We are already seeing a few comments here along those lines. For the record, I play Sci-fi, Fantasy, and Historical games.

My philosophical issue with this development, is not the hobby dichotomy others have issue with, but the allocation of a large amount of space for another entity's commercial enterprise. If only intangible benefits are gained from the resulting increased cost to HMGS-E for the larger facility then it creates a perception issue. But..If some of the hard cost is shared in proportion to site usage, then I do think it is a good synergy. btw- I'm not limiting that viewpoint to GW.

No gaming space will be taken but those who have not booked their rooms better do it quickly as their are few "cheap" rooms left in the city limits of Balitmore.

I was at Timonium and I can tell you that many of the people in attendance were not happy with the tables that were being used for anything but historical games.

I know it is early, but does anyone else see a new BofD coming from this? I think the people who are upset by this should vote with their money and feet. I know many have already stated they will not attend Historicon. I know many in my group have already stated they will not attend for a variety of reasons, but this may push other people to attend Cold Wars and Fall-In, making those better conventions. There may still be some good from all of this.

Goldwyrm,

We all ready allow other for profit and not for profit organizations space to run tournaments at no charge. They collect money for the tournaments with no accountability to HMGS. GW tournaments will be just like ancients, FOW and Wargods tournaments currently run. More dealers will like The Warstore will bring more GW items and less historical items. Scenary dealers will be able to sell to a new GW crowd. As none of the dealers report their revenue to HMGS (hey maybe in the future charge a percentage of the receipts plus a table fee – no that would not work because local taxing authorities could tax the vendors then) we would not know the effect of this new blood.

What is interesting is this came out as a rumour instead of an annoucement here or on the HMGS yahoo group.

I can see arguments for both sides. On the one hand, you have the possibility of bringing in 200 to 300 avid gamers who are likely not exposed to historical gaming and the potential of bringing in new members. I imagine that like me, Pictors and Goldwyrm (and other gamers under the age of 40) that GW brought them into tabletop gaming. The BCC is big, has good facilities and can likely accomodate them.

On the other hand, having several dozen tables has the potential of diluting the historical gaming of the convention, which is the main draw and focus for NEARLY ALL of the attendees of Historicon. I hope that the HMGS plays its cards very carefully with respect to this because it has a good chance of alienating the membership, me included.

What is not helpful are the systematic slanted comments and propaganda against the move. While you can make all sorts of reasonable arguments against the move – costs, distance, bad planning or even "I just don't like Baltimore", intelligent discussion ceases at comments on the sterile environment of the BCC, vague notions of conspiracy theories enacted secretly by the BoD or that the Host facilities are not at capacity. I've been to conventions at the BCC. They are nice and professional and have proper lighting. If that's what is considered sterile, then maybe the Host could use a bit more of that so I can see my games!

What possible conspiracy does the BoD have? My guess is to make a really fun convention. They're all gamers. I doubt they are investing in GW stock now only to sell out after Historicon with the massive sales that will be made. Nobody is trying to destroy the best domestic historical convention. When I drum up new clients, I don't call my best friends. I call acquaintances and invite them over. That's how you get new clients. Maybe having GW attend will help, maybe it won't, but at least they're giving it a shot. I would fault them not for trying but for not trying everything they possibly can to make the convention work. It shows responsibility.

The Host is over capacity. They're putting people in tents. There's no more room for additional dealers, lodgers, flea market sellers, tournaments, etc. on site. That's a fact.

I'm willing to give the BoD the benefit of the doubt and give them a shot at pulling off an even better convention than 2009. I hope the BoD can pull this off. If not, let's roast them on a spit in August!

Best,
Steve
cavalcadewargames.com
nycjadie.wordpress.com

I thought we moved so Battlefront could do a larger FOW tournament (125 tables)? So now we complain because another company is going to take advantage of the space available and run some games. I guess historical gamers just can't stand success. If it is not a small company, barely hanging on, we turn on them. If Old Glory started publishing rules and holding tournaments, they would be in our sights. Can we please stop fighting the battles of the 1970's and move on?

Goldwyrm,

We all ready allow other for profit and not for profit organizations space to run tournaments at no charge. They collect money for the tournaments with no accountability to HMGS. GW tournaments will be just like ancients, FOW and Wargods tournaments currently run. More dealers will like The Warstore will bring more GW items and less historical items. Scenary dealers will be able to sell to a new GW crowd. As none of the dealers report their revenue to HMGS (hey maybe in the future charge a percentage of the receipts plus a table fee – no that would not work because local taxing authorities could tax the vendors then) we would not know the effect of this new blood.

Yes. Your points are valid. I was looking at this in terms of cost/benefit for space use and the perceptions that arise. I wouldn't limit the discussion to GW as you point out, however the topic was originally specific to GW. In theoretical terms, if a con gives 1 or more groups a larger percentage of a venue and they represent a disproportionately smaller percentage of attendance, then it is natural for the others to have issue if they feel they are subsidizing the smaller subset. It is no different than splitting a dinner check evenly when 1 or 2 people did all the heavy drinking, ordered extra appetizers and dessert as well. Sometimes separate checks, or a proportionate contribution is best.

What is interesting is this came out as a rumour instead of an annoucement here or on the HMGS yahoo group.

Yes. But I don't want to go there.

Not a good thing.

If they get 200 gamers in for any new tournament (and they are fully paid attenedees) that is a good thing. But it will also mask the loss of steady Historicon attendees such as myself.

It may be that (as some of my weekly gaming friends have said but I have refused to believe)that HMGS as we knew it no longer exists and is no longer truly relavent. The intro of Battlefront and GW may be the "Jumping the Shark" moment for the Organization.

I'll likely continue to be a member of HMGS and attend the Lancaster Conventions. But the actions of this board, the behavior on these message boards of the supporters of the move and perhaps a personal reassesment of the operations of HMGS make it very hard not to be embarrased to be associated with it all.

As members and gamers, we need a new board not afraid to admit mistakes and a new direction, otherwise as gamers what we need is not a competing convention but a competing organization.

Gil Bates