"French Carabiniers vs French Cuirassiers at Waterloo?" Topic

Can someone chime in on the differences in quality and performance of these two at Waterloo? In terms of rating them relative to one another, any thoughts?

The two Carabinier regiments were the elite of the French Heavy armored cavalry. Not quite guard status but certainly elite.

I'd give them a slight edge, no more. They have pretty uniforms too.

I look at them a little like the Grenadier equivalents in infantry formations compared to your typical veterans…

Guard Cav – Guard
Carabiniers – Elite
Cuirassiers – Veterans

All the other cavalry units I would treat as veterans with several elite regiments amongst them, however, the horse flesh in 1815 for the French was lower from the general consensus on TMP so you might reduce their overall speed in a turn or make them slightly easier to become blown etc…

Shane

That Carabiniers were a cut above Cuirassiers is a very commonly held belief, but contemp accounts don't wholly bear this out. In 1813-14, the Carabiniers are documented as containing an especially large proprtion of raw recruits who performed erratically in battle- sometimes well, other times very poorly.
Maybe this had stabilised by 1815, but to be frank, in wargames terms I doubt it would add up to a whole class difference in morale/combat efficency.

yes that is true senefe for 1813-14 but having 10 months to rebuild the cavalry and replace losses (to an extent) and knowing that the carabiniers were an elite body of men normally my opinion is that they were again, close to what they were previously.

Also, there was a great deal of men returning to France from POW camps etc who would have helped filled out the elite status I think…

Also, there was a great deal of men returning to France from POW camps etc who would have helped filled out the elite status I think…

Interesting concept! How is elite status conferred by a couple of years on a prison hulk?! Likely they were mostly in poor physical condition.

Here's an article on the Carabiniers link
Excerpt from the article: "In 1815 some of the carabiniers deserted to Wellington even before the campaign began. There were so many carabiniers (and other cavalrymen) deserters that Wellington formed a troop called "Bourbon Cavalry Corps." At Waterloo, a sergeant of 2e Carabiniers and a thorough monarchist, deserted to the British just shortly before Napoleon's Guard attacked. He let the enemy know when and where the Guard will attack. (As claimed by British Sergeant Cotton) Captain Duthulit also stated that "this infamous criminal" was from the horse carabiniers, but he was an officer. Another carabinier deserted to the Netherland troops under Chasse. The remaining carabiniers however fought well at Waterloo."
On the Cuirassiers link

Charles-François Dubarrail
capitaine adjudant-major au 2e régiment de carabiniers à cheval
Né fin de 1785 à Nancy, fils d'un officier et de une famille de cinque officiers généraux, de père en fils. Emigré chez sa famille. Cadet en 1797 au k.k. Ingenieur-Akademie im Theresianum. En 1805, il s' échappait de la maison paternelle pour s' engager dans les vélites de la Garde (son père, dont il n'avait pas demandé le consentement, trouvait le moyen de le faire réformer). En 1806, incorporé dans la 1ère compagnie de gendarmes d'ordonnance, sous les ordres du général de Laval-Montmorency. Maréchal des logis après Eylau, il fut nommé sous-lieutenant au 10e dragons et assista avec ce régiment à la bataille de Friedland. Envoyé à l'Ecole d'équitation de Versailles, il en sortit en 1809 comme lieutenant du 2e carabiniers et arriva à ce régiment la veille de Ratisbonne, où le 2e carabiniers perdit six capitaines. Le lendemain, il était nommé adjudant-major par la force des choses. Il était fait chevalier de la Légion d' Honneur après Wagram où il fut grièvement blessé. Il fit avec le 2e carabiners les campagnes de Russie, de Saxe, de France, et les Cent Jours comme capitaine adjudant-major.
A Mont-Saint-Jean, vers 19 heures, un peu avant la dernière attaque de la garde, le capitaine Dubarrail quitte sa ligne pour rejoindre la ligne anglaise en criant " Vive le Roi ! " et se présente au colonel Sir John Colborne du 52e britannique. Lui hurle: " La garde Impériale se prépare à marcher sur vous, conduite par Napoléon en personne. Vive le Roi ! ". Le colonel Colborne appelle l'un de ses sergents et fait conduire le capitaine Dubarrail auprès du duc de Wellington. Le plus singulier, c'est que il avait vaillament chargé deux fois les Anglais. Revenu, de longues années après, visiter le champ de bataille, il y rencontra l'ex-sergent du 23ème dragons, Cotton, devenu guide à Waterloo. Il lui expliqua qu'il n'avait pas déserté plus tôt, parce qu'il espèrait entraîner avec lui plusieurs de ses camarades.
Fait chevalier de l'Ordre de Saint Louis et officier de la Légion d'Honneur, il est promu capitaine au grenadiers à cheval de la garde royale le 10 octobre 1815. Chef d'escadron au 5e régiment, cuirrassiers d'Orléans, en 1822, avec lequel il fit la campagne d'Espagne. Mis en non-activité en 1826. En 1830 lors de la Révoultion de Juillet, il est lieutenant-colonel au 2e carabinier. Inquiété comme légitimiste, il s'exile en Belgique. Il sera réintégré en 1833 et envoyé à Oran. Il finira sa carrière à Mostaganem.
Il se marie en 1817 avec Mlle de Chalendar. Son fils, François-Charles, né en 1820 à Versailles, est général et ministre de la guerre. link

Frayer

Interesting concept! How is elite status conferred by a couple of years on a prison hulk?! Likely they were mostly in poor physical condition.

That is a broad and misleading statement Fred, for a start not all French prisoners were subjected to incarceration in the hulks of ships unless of course they were prisoners held up from the Peninsula war.

Not all French prisoners of war were rotting away condemed to die on prison hulks guarded by redcoats…

I suggest you do some research on returning prisoners in 1814, you will find that they came from many directions and many of them with a fire for revenge. And as for poor physical condition, yes, maybe from the prison hulks but 10 months does a great deal of good for the constitution to rebuild and repair itself anyway.

The desire of the French army in 1815 was great to defend its honour and fight well, the return of old soldier captured over the previous years was enormous as well. Look into the subject and read it…yes, there were deserters in 1815 and I would not be surprised there was. After all, Napoleon was deposed and the army changed in his absence, men who did not like Napoleon were in the ranks. It is not rocket science to understand these men in 1815 would desert and do what they did. The Carabiniers had a previous royal history before the empire and men who were loyal to the King would be found in the ranks for sure.

Shane

some "stuff" -

Le manuscrit des carabiniers
le capitaine A. Albert
Paris et Nancy: Société de la sabretache et Berger-Levrault, 1894.
Paris: Librairie Bruno Sépulchre, 1989.
Avant propos du général Vanson, frontispice d'après Bardin, in-8 broché, couverture illustrée en couleurs, des illustrations en NB, VIII, 290 p. – réédition de l'édition quasi introuvable de 1894.
"Cette histoire circonstanciée fut rédigée à Lunéville, au commencement de la Restauration, par l'ex-quartier maître du 1er carabiniers, à l'aide de pièces et de renseignements par lui rassemblés et sous le contrôle des souvenirs de plusieurs officiers de carabiniers retraités comme lui dans la ville".
"La bibliothèque de Lunéville possède, sur cette époque, un manuscrit des plus intéressants, retraçant en détail le rôle rempli par les carabiniers. Il a été imprimé et publié sous le titre : Le manuscrit des Carabiniers. Le capitaine Albert, qui fut quartier‑maître du 1er carabiniers, en est l'auteur. Il avait pris sa retraite à Lunéville et je me rappelle, il y a bien longtemps de cela, l'avoir vu souvent se rendre à une propriété, nommée les Abouts, qu'il possédait dans les environs, monté dans un petit char‑à‑bancs traîné par un cheval qui n'avait rien de fringant."
link

Études sur la cavalerie française: les carabiniers
le baron Frédéric-Guillaume-Émeric de Reiffenberg
Versailles: Imprimerie de Dufaure, 1870, in-12 broché, 44 p.
"détails, organisation, uniformes, campagnes et actions d'éclat."

Livre d'or des carabiniers
le capitaine Bué, illustré par Detaille, Titeux et Van Muyden
Paris: Imprimerie Blot, 1898, in-4, 450p.

Les grands régiments disparus – carbiniers, Royal-Roussillon, 11e cuirassiers
le capitiane J. Chavane, illustré par de Castex
Paris: Charavay, 1889, in-8, 370 p.
"26 représentations de portraits d'après des documents authentiques."

Frayer

Shane,

The famous deserter of the carabiniers, as noted above, was quite a typical late Empire officer. His family was noble, and did emigrate during the Revolution, and returned under Bonaparte.
The officer first ran away from home to join the vélites de la Garde. His father corralled him, and instead got him a billet in the gendarmes d'ordonnace. Promoted sous-lieutenant after Freidland, in the 10e dragons. Then to the carabiniers as a lieutenant. Promoted capitaine and awarded the Légion d'honneur after Wagram, where he was badly wounded. Fought in Russia in 1812, Saxony in 1813, France in 1814 and then Cent Jours. He even made two cavalry charges with the carabiniers at Waterloo before deserting.

Really rather strange behavior.

I don't know of all that many deserters, but leaving the regiment (under many pretexts) was not too uncommon among the officers of the old nobility upon Bonaparte's return. So there was some amount of "upheaval" in the "command structure". But, there was "upheaval" in the country generally, right?

Frayer

Along with actual prisoners of war, many veterans who were cooped up in besieged fortresses throughout Germany and greater France returned during the peace, including Davout's large garrison of Hamburg. They were prisoners of a sort, but still under French command. They would help fill the ranks.

definately…

and the many wounded and convalescing now returned to duty.

The French system worked in an order of selection also, men were drawn from the line to join the elite companies, who in turn were drawn into the guard, who in turn went through the tiers of the guard eventually reaching the old guard…

The same thing for the Carabiniers…men drawn from line regiments enter the elite troops and squadrons, men picked from the elite squadrons are picked to enter the Cuirassiers and so on…

I am not sure of the selection process of the Carabiniers (have to look it up tonight) but I am sure they were hand picked from the Cuirassiers or at least hand picked best of the best from other means.

Shane

On the subject of POWs, many were housed in my town (Leek in Staffordshire). So many that a warren of cottages to the rear of the old church (as we call it) was called "Petty France" until there demolition. Many remained in Leek having met and married local girls. Some of their tombstones are in the old cemetary, and quite a few local families still have French names.

@Frayer

Where in Carnet de la Sabretache 1894 can I find the Le manuscrit de carabinieres?

On POW's. If you are visit Portsmouth in England, go to Porchester Castle. It's basic configuration is Roman, with Norman and Medieval additions. It was used a a POW camp during the 2nd Hundred Years War.

portchestercastle.co.uk

Salut v. Winterfeldt !

The publication in 1894 by Berger-Levrault appears to have be sponsored by the Société. I do not think it appeared in the Carnets.

However, I believe the work may have been serialized (at least in part) as follows:
Revue de Cavalerie
Paris, Berger-Levrault.
t. XI, 1890, p. 421
t. XV, 1892, p. 130, 303, 518
t. XVI. 1892-1893, p. 156
t. XVII. 1893, p. 22

I don't have these issues to compare to the re-edition. Perhaps "Wagram" or our "Steven H. Smith" will be able to make the comparison.

Frayer

Frayer,
It has always been my suspicion that Captain Dubarrail had an ulterior motive to his apparent desertion. The intelligence that he gave, presumably broadcast to all that could hear him, was that Napoleon in person was advancing with the Imperial Guard to that exact position…… If I was in the ranks, I think I'd have been pretty upset that we were about to be the target of the 'invincible' Imperial Guards attack. From Dubarrail's perspective, his 'desertion' would be short-lived, as he could rejoin his comrades after the Guard had broken the allied lines. It always seemed too coincidental that Dubarrail would know where the guards intended point of impact on the allied lines was to fall – unless he had some inside information – and was acting under orders. Sadly for him, the Guard didn't break the lines, and his story became one of deserter, as opposed to covert operative on a special mission.
Just an idea……..

Ligniere, interesting take – a little modern psy-ops perhaps, but definitely not beyond the cunning of a certain Emperor of the French.

In the Ancien Régime the carabiniers were picked for horsemanship, and they survived the Revolution as an élite corps. Napoleon certainly considered them as such, and would have brought them into his Guard had not the "heavies" slot been taken already by the Grenadiers à cheval. – All of which doesn't say they were necessarily still élite by 1815…

@Frayer

Thank you, but Carnets de la Sabretache were firstly published in 1893.

So it maybe very worthwhile to buy the reprint.

A good source would be most likley the livre d'or, but then again who has it and could tell us what the content is.

@Ligniere
It is an interesting conjecture, and would explain a really rather strange action.

However, I think that I read that after the battle a fellow officer from the regimental staff did recall the du Barrail suggested that they desert. I am sorry, but I can't find where this was sourced – possibly in some letters of chef d'escadron Jean-Joseph Saint-Mard of the 2e carabiniers – the scans of which I sadly lost to a hard-drive failure many years ago. Also du Barrail got some really nice appointments under the second Restoration and did leave for a short exile in Belgium in 1830.

Still, a very interesting idea.

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@v. Winterfeldt

No, no, dear colleague – not in the Carnets, but in the Revue de Cavalerie – look again, above.

Personally, I would like to know whose 26 portraits are in "Les grands régiments disparus".

-------------------------------------

Also found this note from Scott Bowden, while looking in my carabiniers file.

"[I]n the 1st Carabiniers on 15 June, with 32 officers (with 46 horses) and 402 other ranks (with 426 horses) present and under arms, the inspection notes state that only 257 cuirasses were noted as being worn, and of those, 86 had just been repaired. In the 2nd Carabiniers, with 30 officers (with 41 horses) and 383 other ranks (with 373 horses) present and under arms, the marginalia mentions that only 225 cuirasses were being worn, and of those, 71 had just been repaired."

Interesting to try to paint them this way, no?

Frayer

I did not know that, thanks Frayer.


picture

picture

picture

"Un Sous-0ffider de Carabiniers en 1813", Carnet de la sabretache,1904, p 1ff:

link

I seriously doubt that any carabiniers a cheval were ever aboard any British hulks. They were certainly not engaged in the peninsula outside of Napoleon's personal involvement in 1808. I would need to see those OBs before speculating. Napoleon's personal campaign there was very limited and involved very few encounters with British troops. I doubt that any carabiniers ever saw red coats prior to Waterloo. So much for the "hulks."

The lack of cuirasses available for the final campaign does indicate that the carabiniers were not as well cared for by the Restoration. Ney's bios tell that he was in charge of the guard cavalry in this period and completely refit the entire corps with tack, horses, equipment, uniforms and men. It would appear that the carabiniers did not so benefit.

Also, "so many" deserters that Wellington formed a Bourbon troop? A troop is what, forty or fifty men? That's not very many. I doubt Wellington would have much respect for deserters. They could always change their minds again. And I seriously doubt that the key deserter who warned of the Guard attack at Waterloo was part of any "psy ops." I recall that he said only, "That bastard of a Napoleon is sending his guard at you," or some such thing. I don't recall any specifics of attack location. That would have been obvious as soon as the guard came over the ridge.

Lastly, I would rate carabiniers the same as cuirassiers in terms of wargame effectiveness. The difference in "attitude" would seem to be virtually insignificant.

In May 1814, the 1er et 2e régiments de carabiniers à cheval became the brigade de carabiniers de S.A.R. Monsieur (Charles-Philippe de France, le comte d'Artois, lieutenant-général du royaume, frère du roi). In general they were quite well treated under the first restoration, one might think, in accord with their elite status under the ancien régime, as the "demonstration unit" for the equitation school, and in accord with their NOT ever being part of the Garde impériale. But the numbers were not sufficient to put two full-strength regiments back into the field in full armor for Cent Jours, the peacetime establishment being only 328 mounted carabiniers per regiment. The quoted inspection report would not include officers, as they owned their own uniforms and armor. 482 non-officers had cuirasses, or about 70% of the peacetime mounted establishment. I doubt that the units were at much above this level in men or horses prior to the Cent Jours.
The regiments received a combined total of 610 horses of high quality from the stable from the Maison du Roi at the start of the Cent Jours.

The brigade de carabiniers did not make the campaign in Iberia with Napoléon. They served only in central Europe.

At Waterloo, the senior officers of the brigade were:
-- maréchal de camp baron Amiable-Guy Blancard (1774 Loriol-sur-Drome – 1853 Paris)
1er carabiniers à cheval
-- colonel Arnaud Rogé (1776 Boisse, Dordogne – 1857)
-- major Bel (? – tué à Mont-Saint-Jean)
-- chef d'escadron baron Louis Joannès (? – tué à Mont-Saint-Jean)
-- chef d'escadron Jean-Baptiste Coiffier (1767 Omécourt, Oise – 1837 Omécourt, Oise)
2e carabiniers à cheval
-- colonel François Beugnat (1768 Asfeld, Ardennes – 1851 Évreux)
-- chef d'escadron Louis-Nicolas Benoit (1774 Soissons – ?)
-- chef d'escadron Jean-François-Balthazar Reynaud (1777 Le Puy, Haute-Loire – ?)
-- chef d'escadron Jean-Joseph Saint-Mard (1773 Thonnes-les-Près, Meuse – 1821 Montmédy)
The colonel Beugnat did serve in Spain, with the 5e chasseurs à cheval and/or as an aide de camp.
The chef d'escadron Saint-Mard did serve in Spain, with the 6e dragons.
The others did not serve in Spain, as far as I can tell.

On 16 October 1807, each regiment of carabiniers was ordered to detach a company sized unit of 120 men for service in Spain as part of the 1er régiment provisoire de grosse cavalerie, later established as the 13e cuirassiers, dit «L'intrépide», and disbanded at the first Restoration. The 13e cuirassiers fought in Catalonia for the most part, and saw rather few British. It was quite a good regiment, and lost few or no men prisoners. I do not know of any veterans of this unit in the brigade of carabiniers during the Cent Jours, but it is not impossible.

Found on-line, also perhaps of interest -
Histoire du 11e Cuirassiers
Joseph Chavane
Paris: Caharavay, 1889, 367 p., ill.
link

Frayer

Vaughan

French POWs in Leek, I would be interested in more information on this, has any good research being done, so next time i'm up there i can have a look.

where is the old church?