"Why didn't the A-9 , A-10 and A-13 tanks have nicknames?" Topic

Or, did they?

good question, the cruiser tanks after the a13's did get named, but not these.

Aren't they usually referred to as the Cruiser, Marks I, II and III?

That's Cruiser with a big C, thus it is its name, rather than just with a little c, meaning the type of tank it is.

I'm not aware that they had nicknames in the sense that American tanks did. I'm not sure why. They did have formal designations, though:

A-9 = Cruiser Tank Mk I
A-10 = Cruiser Tank Mk II and Mk IIA
A-13 = Cruiser Tank Mk III, Mk IV and Mk IVA

As I understand it, the A-9, A-10 and A-13 designations referred to the General Staff specifications, while the Cruiser Tank designations were the formal tank names. At least, I think the above is correct. I've always found this topic to be a bit confusing. My source for this info is Jentz's Tank Combat in North Africa.

Plynkes speaks sooth. The designation is Tank, Cruiser, Mk I and so forth.

You may call one "Tank".

Allen

Tank nicknames were a British idea that got gradually absorbed by the US Army. The US Army started out with only the official designations for the tanks. The Medium Tank M4 was named the Sherman by the British. The British names became so prevalent among US troops that the US started naming our vehicles as well.

As far as I know, the A9-13 crusisers never had a nickname. neither did the Vickers mk 6. The first British tank I know of with a nickname was the Matilda I.

The same reason Panzers I, II, III and IV were not called something?
--
Tim

I imagine that they had plenty of nicknames, but not ones that would be used in polite company.

Brent

Ah, thanks. That explains a lot.
I come late to this, since I" had shied away from WW2 gaming until the siren song of Flames of War.

My only exposure to these tanks were in lists that did not use the "Cruiser Mk Roman Numeral" designation, and in catalogs.

"thas why the call me the cruiser"

YouTube link

They were nicknamed after obscurely sized sheets of paper.

The same reason Panzers I, II, III and IV were not called something?

I don't think they were even called that by our mob. Whenever I've read British memoirs or reports from the time they never seem to use our modern designation of 'Panzer I', 'Panzer II' etc.

They always say something along the lines of "we were attacked by several Mark Fours."

I understand that reports that said "We are under attack by two bunnies and a squirrel" were quashed by the high command.

Plus, nobody ever pitched in to rescue those savaged by a bunny, even if it had a 75mm gun and two machine guns.

"I imagine that they had plenty of nicknames, but not ones that would be used in polite company."
Yes usually probably something like--Oh hell not one of these again!!

Yes, German tanks were usually referred to as Mark II, III or IV, even Stugs IIIs were sometimes called Mark IIIs! Tigers and Panthers were called Tigers and Panthers.

"We are under attack by two bunnies and a squirrel"

It was the British who were savage rabbits, in WW1 anyway. A villers-bretonnoux reference, I'll let you look it up.

because the British are too polite to call them a name that showed how they felt about them

The 'A' nomenculture was the General Staff specification serial for each project.

This was officially abandoned in War Office letter No57/Tanks/2305 (SD7) dated 11th June 1940 and replaced by Class and Mark: eg Cruiser MkIII.

Lawrence Carr propsosed the following names to Churchill on 1st August 1940:

A9 MkI KRAIT
A10 MkII COBRA
A13 MkI/Mk III ASP
A13 MkII/Mk IV ADDER

but thankfully were never adopted!

Cheers
Mark

Perhaps because the Germans blew them up before they got a chance to acquire nicknames?

No, usual British government malaise – committee after committee after committee.

They weren't cool enough.

Is it because the crews didn't survive long enough to give them nicknames?

Infantry tank Mk 1 Matilda, seems to have been known, at least unofficially, as 'The Duck' to distinguish it from the Matilda II. 'The Duck' was short for 'The Ruptured Duck' name given to it by crews, because of its appearance.

The early cruisers were probably known as 'wreck 1, 2, 3' etc as most seem to have ended up that way!

The infantry tank Mk1 was known as Matilda named after Matilda the duck a popular cartoon character in England at the time because the Mk1 tended to "waddle" like a duck when moving.

jdg

The A13 III was called a Covenanter

The A13 III was called a Covenanter

Yes, after another round of renaming prompted by Churchill. It was at one stage perfectly permissable to call it: A13 Mark III Cruiser Tank Mark V COVENANTER Mark IV.

Cheers
Mark

I think that part of the reason they didn't have a name attached was that, at least pre-war, there just were not that many of them around – as well, the exact role of tanks pre-war was the subject of considerable debate

They were already named after British motorways.
-Kle.

Interesting idea Frederick, an element of truth there…. pre war, it was simply not policy to give tanks nicknames. They were called after their GS designator, the tank type and mark, and also by sub-type and sub-mark.

Names like Whippet, Hornet and of course the Independent and Matilda did exist but were not originally officially sanctioned. Valentine was a private venture by Vickers so they could call it what they wanted.

It was noted that the growing number of tank designs could cause confusion in the heat of battle in getting spare parts etc, especially when transmitting requests by telephone or radio.

Hence the nicknames came about. It was Churchill who cut through all the silly names by providing some even sillier of his own before the 'C' series of tank names came about – in part I believe in honour of Churchill himself.

The American general tank names were also down to Churchill:

28th August 1942 Churchill to General Pug Ismay:

"Confusion will be caused if we start calling the Sherman M3, as the best class of German tank is similarly named (PzIII). The following names in particular are to be taken into universal and permanent use:

SHERMAN, GRANT, LEE, STUART"

Cheers
Mark

Mark – great post – I always thought it was funny how "the other side" in the Civil War often gets equal billing (for example, Fort Hood)

They were already named after British motorways.

British trunk roads.

The first stretch of UK motorway was not built until 1958. Motorways are designated with the letter M, so you get things like the M6 or the A1(M) – so nothing like the tanks I'm afraid.

Because "Bloody useless piles of junk" was already taken by the Blackburn Aircraft Company.

Mark's post has the story right.

No love for the Skua, Huw? First kill of the war; took out the Koenigsberg; sexy as all get-out?

Allen

Yes the Skua, great little plane, now as for the Roc..
link

Allen, Blackburn Aircraft were almost universally terrible! The Skua was the highlight of Blackburns WWII aircraft designs, which isn't saying a lot. (I've still got the old Frog kit in a box somewhere). Blackburn seemed to have a knack for building ungainly &/or unsuccessful aircraft, dating back at least as far as WWI & stretching right through their career. Exhibits #1 picture , #2 picture & #3 picture in the Hall of Shame (admittedly the Beverley was a useful aircraft).

As to the others, the Botha was a dud, the Firebrand was was more dangerous to its pilot than to the Germans & the Roc was an absurdity whose only useful role was as an AA mounting whilst safely Earthbound…..

It amazes me that Blackburn survived long enough to produce an aircraft as good as the Buccaneer. It was somewhat against the Blackburn tradition being not only attractive but also successful!

British trunk roads.

Ah, my bad.

Allen, Blackburn Aircraft were almost universally terrible!

Not compared to Boulton-Paul. Or Farman, for that matter.
-Kle.

Blackburn took over General Aircraft, so the Beverly was based on strapping engines to the Hamilcar glider. Part of the fault lies with giving the RAF control over the FAA in the '20s and '30s. Naval aircraft were last in the queue and were stipulated to be multipurpose designs – hence the Skua has to be both fighter and dive bomber and rec. platform, Barracuda both torpedo bomber and dive bomber, Firefly fighter, attack and rec. aircraft, Firebrand both fighter and torpedo bomber etc. Generally British naval aircraft designs were hopelessly compromised attempts to be all things to all men, until we got some purpose designed american planes and began to realise that single purpose designs were better. Still naval aircraft remained the underfunded cinderalla post war (Sea vixen was originally designed for the RAF, but went to the navy after the RAF chose Javelin). The Buccaneer was a product of the injection of funds into the nuclear deterrent in the '50s – and the need for a carrier borne delivery platform in addition to the V bombers.

Etranger for the win!

To be clear about the German tanks: It was the British who called them Mark I, Mark II, etc., and the Germans who called them Panzer I, Panzer II, etc.

(And the Americans called them all "Tigers.")

The names weren't nicknames they were official designations. There is a difference. Official paperwork would refer to them by name unlike the Americans where it would be something like M4A3E8 or whatever.

Hmmmm…. Then again some vehicles were given nicknames only after the war, I'm thinking specifically about M10 Achilles and Wolverines which were both just "M10's" or even Fireflies to contemporary troops, only later did the official designation get tacked on.

Official paperwork would refer to them by name unlike the Americans where it would be something like M4A3E8 or whatever.

Tank, Medium, 76mm, M4A3(w)hvss is, I believe, the designation you were looking for.

M4A3 was an official designation. E8 was not. E indicated "experimental" … a designation used only during development. E8 indicates the 8th experimental model in sequence. Once accepted for production/service, the E designator was dropped.

And yet, it is known to history as the M4A3E8 or, in short form as the "Easy 8".

It was the British who called them Mark I

Well, I've been called worse, and by more than just the Brits…
;-)

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

And just to demonstrate how out-of-control the US Army designation system truly was, consider the question of the M3.

Sure, it probably worked as a designation system for the project managers at Ordnance, but once in a combat zone, where communications are necessarily cryptic … well consider the poor guy in some isolated outpost in Tunisia, who receives a radio message that some M3s are being sent to his command.

The US Army at that time had:

M3 Light Tank (Britspeak: Stuart or Honey).
M3 Medium Tank (Britspeak: Lee).
M3 Half Track.
M3 Tank Destroyer (Gun, Motor Carriage to be precise), which was built on an M3 Half Track.
M3 75mm Gun, which was not used on any of the M3 Tank Destroyers built on the M3 Half Track, but were used in a few of the M3 Medium Tanks, and became standard in the M4 Medium Tank.
M3 Sub-Machine Gun, just coming into service and not common yet, but eventually a standard crew item in the M4 Medium.

How many other M3s there might have been I can only guess. There were probably M3 Can Openers and M3 Binoculars or some such.

And it wasn't just M3s … there were of course the M1 Rifle and the M1 Carbine, both .30 caliber but with very different cartridges. And the somewhat larger M1 105mm Howitzer and M1 76mm gun, with rather different cartridges! There was the M2 75mm Gun that went into some of the M3 Tank Destroyer. This gun preceded the M1 76mm gun by some 2 years. The M6 Tank Destroyer had an M5 gun, but not the upgraded M6 gun. But that was the M5 37mm gun, NOT the M5 3-inch gun (which was not used in the M6 Tank Destroyer but was used in the M6 Heavy Tank … and the M10 Tank Destroyer).

Is it any wonder that when Mars developed chocolate candies that did not melt all over your hands for the US Army ration packs, they named them "M&Ms"?

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

I will mark you down as a marksist.

That's because wargamers insist on doing things bass ackwards.

It's not an 'M' anything, it's the item you are requesting or talking about, followed by the type or model number (hence M) e.g. "I need spare track links for a tank, M4a1". Title, followed by description

The British army does the same thing, as anyone who has ever worn boots, ankle DMS and a shirt, KF while carrying a rifle, L1a1 will tell you.

And yes, there were binoculars, M3! PDF link

(sent from my computer, laptop, Dell 1750)