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"Battle of Dettingen 1743 French Order of Battle" Topic


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2,204 hits since 12 Oct 2009
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comte de malartic12 Oct 2009 7:54 a.m. PST

Does anyone out there have an order of battle for the French at Dettingen? I'm interested in the units that actually fought rather than the whole army. I used to have the Miniature Wargames magazine article but cannot find it at present.

V/R

Joe

de Ligne Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Oct 2009 8:37 a.m. PST

Joe,
I have 4 jpgs that have illustrations of the units that were present (both sides) with flags. It does not list numbers of battalions/squadrons or the commands of particular generals, but it might be of use. If it is, let me have your email address and I'll send them to you.
Nigel

comte de malartic12 Oct 2009 9:25 a.m. PST

Thank you, Nigel.

My e-mail is joewally1@cox.net.

V/R

Joe

de Ligne Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Oct 2009 10:06 a.m. PST

Sent

Graf Bretlach12 Oct 2009 12:07 p.m. PST

I would be interested too, mail me on mark dot info at ntlworld dot com, thanks

I will check my notes on the ob for dettingen, but it was mostly the allies i was trying to figure out, I have some good sources just not there at the moment

crogge1757 Supporting Member of TMP12 Oct 2009 12:44 p.m. PST

@ de Ligne,

I'd be interested too. I searched but haven't been able to locate one. I researched it long time ago. Could make up the force down to brigade level, but did not get much beyond. Also the generals in command of the various bodies prooved to be challanging. I helped out another one earlier this year who was searching the generals. I copy my in my replies below:

first mail:
Sorry, I fear I have not much found in my sources. Did you check the plans and accounts found in the digital archive of the Hesse State Archive Marburg? (link: link – docs 58 through 62. It also includes an Allied OB Hanau 4 July) It has several maps and some relations in French. Also a casualty table of the French. The below gentlemen are listed:

Lieutenant-generals killed or wounded:
duc d'Harcourt
comte d'Eu
Mr. de Cheresis
Mr. de St. André

general-majors (maréchaux de camp)

Mr. de Chabanne de Marislle
Mr. de Mongibeau
de Biron
duc d'Ayen
duc de Boufleurs

All the other accounts mention is a certain Prince Dombes and Mr. de Bercheny as generals in Noailles army. But no mention of them in the battle. A Mr. de Maillebois commanded the Dauphin brigade detached to Miltenberg. The duc de Grammont was in command of the Maison du Roi (13 escadrons) in the centre of the first line. I have researched 2 more brigades in the 2nd line (Carabiniers and Royal with some 16 esc). They should be commanded by another general. You need a general commanding the right wing infantry and that of the left, at least. And possibly another for the reinforcement inf brigades arriving somewhat later (incl. Piémont, Navarre, du Roi and more).
The casualty table would list all names by seniority. So, Harcourt might well qualify for commanding the right, and d'Eu the left. That'll be my best guess.

second mail:
Your Dettingen project has attracted my attention. By the time I researched the battle, I wasn't much familiar with the French army. Now, that I know it better, I noticed the Dettingen army was quite formidable with all that Household and many regiments of fame present. Yes, I do like a copy of your orbats and especially the scenario set up. I play Volley & Bajonet, so, will have to rescale. But Dettingen seems to make for an interesting game.
As to the French generals, I searched some more. We can do a little better then with my 1st reply. But not much better. I fear, there won't be much around. At best, you'll get a schematic order of battle of this army with all generals, customly done at the commencement of a campaign. Here May/June as Noallies assembled his force at the Neckar river. I fear it won't give you the Dettingen commands.

Philippe Evrard's French web-pages has some soucre material, incl. Noailles report to the king (link: pfef.free.fr/Page_Principale.htm )
This source gives the below senior commanders by his compliments he is communicating to the king:
duc de Chartres
comte de Clermont
prince de Dombes (or prince D'Ombes)
comte d'Eu
and
duc de Penthièvre (Louis-Joseph-Marie de Bourbon *1725)

Chartres is a very junior gentlemen, but of royal blood ("prince de sang"). V.I.P. and was appointed overall commander of the Cavalry. Thats why Noailles mentions him first. Before his arrival it was Grammont.
Chartes was promoted maréchal de camp only in July 1743, but that doesn't matter much. He remains a senior by birth (Pajol provides the biographical note and some more detail – link: link )

Placement of commands usually goes by seniority:

Here is the quotation – Letter Noailles 29 June to the king (use babelfish translator. Should work fine):

… "Je ne puis me dispenser de vous dire, Sire, combien Mr. le Duc de Chartres s'est distingué hier, s'étant toûjours trouvé dans le plus grand chaud de l'Action, ralliant ses Troupes, les ramenant lui-même au Combat, avec un courage, une présence d'Esprit, & un zèle, que je ne puis trop louër ni trop admirer."…

…"Mr. le Comte de Clermont, Mr le Prince de Dombes, & Mr. le Comte d'Eu ont fait, à la tête de leurs Divisions, tout ce que l'on peut attendre du plus grand courage, & de la plus grande volonté."
(snip – that's the names I would go for, now come the seconding generals:)

"je ‘dopis' ['?' – ‘doit'] rendre justice à ceux des Officiers Généraux ; Mrs de Montal, de Balincourt, Bulckley, Duc de Grammont, Ségur, Puttanges, & Duc de Biron"…

… les Maréchaux de Camp, Mrs. Les Ducs de Richelieu & de Luxembourg, Berchiny, d'Apcher, Duc de Boufflers, & Duc de Chevreuse, Prince de Soubise, & Duc de Pequigny"…

Here comes the ranking from the French État Militaire editions of 1758 and 1763. I don't have older ones. Some generals have passed away since and are not listed anymore


ranking of lieutenant generals:
promotion date 1 August 1734
Montal
Balincourt

6 July 1735
Clermont
(obviously also Dombes)
d'Eu

20 February 1743
Puttanges

(Bulckley (Infantry), Grammont (Cavalry), Ségur somewhere inbetween)

1 January 1744
Biron (chef of du Roi inf.)

2 May 1744
duc de Penthièvre

What is missing is who is cavalry and who is infantry. I would have to guess. Of what I know I have in brackets above.
I know that D'Ayen, Harcourt were most likely among the Maison du Roi. Not senior commanders within their divisions. Also I know the duc de Duras was brigadier and colonel of the Auvergne regiment. All should be below the level of command you need, I guess. Bercheny might well have been in command of the dragoons and hussars on the French left flank.

Hope this adds a bit in this quest,
Christian

comte de malartic12 Oct 2009 3:07 p.m. PST

Nigel and Christian,

Thank you very much for the information.

Nigel,

I looked at your painted Hanoverians--very beautiful work! What manufacturer are they?

V/R

Joe

Graf Bretlach12 Oct 2009 5:35 p.m. PST

Louis-Auguste de Bourbon, prince de Dombes, premier fils du duc du Maine, naquit le 4 mars 1700, colonel-général des Suisses
Il servit à l’armée commandée par le maréchal de Noailles, par lettres du 1er avril 1743, et combattit à Ettingen, le 27 juin.

Graf Bretlach12 Oct 2009 5:45 p.m. PST

Have uploaded a file with a brigade order of battle and table of losses (so you can work out who was engaged)

hopefully at this link
link

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Oct 2009 9:15 p.m. PST

The late Jim MItchell published a translation of the Journal of the Chevalier de Malbez and it included the French order of battle, albeit without a listing of the brigade commanders. Since it was the French custom to name a brigade after the senior most regiment, I wonder if the regimental commander of the senior regiment in each brigade was also the brigade commander?

de Ligne Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Oct 2009 8:19 a.m. PST

Joe,
Crusader Prussians from their SYW range with officers from Foundry's SYW British range.

comte de malartic13 Oct 2009 4:11 p.m. PST

Graf Bretlach/Everyone,

Thank you for the information.

V/R

Joe

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