"Division-Sized Civil War Battles" Topic

Well, this is strange. I am reviewing a pre-publication set of American Civil War rules where the author writes "there were 1,000 battles in the American Civil War where each side fielded a division-sized force (approximately 6,000 men each side)". I'm a little suspicious of such an even number as "1,000". The author said he didn't recall where he got that statistic. I shrugged it off and decided to look it up myself in Fox and Livermore. To my shock neither of these hallowed sources looks at civil war battles from a comprehensive "how many men were engaged on each side" perspective. I continued my research into my own library but continued to be disappointed. I finally turned to Wikipedia (I know, not the most reliable of sources) which at least lists all the battles of any consequence in the civil war. But that list does not say how large the engagements were.

So I am turning to TMP. Does anyone know how many American Civil War battles there were where approximately 6,000 men were engaged on each side? These would be separate engagements, not parts of a larger battle.

Thanks.

Wilson's Creek?

It is not a good sign when an author can't reference his source.

Lovejoy's Station/Nash Farm, GA

henrycountybattlefield.com

Also, how many division's really had that many men actually take part in the battle?

Mosby--do they mean pitched battles or engagements where a few soldiers shoot at each other and move on etc…..

archstanton73

Battles where at least 3-4 brigades on each side were facing each other. The intensity of the battle or the number of casualties inflicted is not an issue. I believe the statistic was included to give the reader some idea of how many historical division-sized battles could be fought using these tactical-scale rules.

Wilson's Creek near Springfield, Missouri had about 6,000 Union and about 10,000 Confederates. It is an interesting battle with a lot of possiblilities for gaming including a lot of "what if's". What if General Nathaniel Lyon was not killed?

I do not know the answer to your question. Missouri had many skirmishes but most of them were probably not as big as 6,000 on each side.

Mosby: Since you are the one apparently most interested in the answer, I nominate you to count them all. Let us know what you come up with.

I'm looking at a National Geographic map that has hundreds, if not thousands of dots of different sizes to indicates battles that were 1) Decisive, 2)Major, 3)Minor, 4)other. I think it has more to do with significance than size as Wilson's Creek and Chickamauga are both considered Decisive battles. The map doesn't total the different types, but using the dots as reminders I think I can start listing some of the engagements in your ballpark. I am going by memeory, so I may be off on whether they fit. After all, I am also interested in creating scenarios of that size to play.

Shepardstown
South Mountain, MD
Kernstown, VA
First Winchester, VA
McDowell, VA
Cross Keys, VA
Port Republic, VA
Plymouth, NC
New Berne, NC
Fort Fisher, NC
Seccessionville, SC
Olustee, FL
Iuka, MS
Port Hudson, LA
Helena, AK
Prairie Grove, AK (a little large)
2nd Newtonia, MO
Westport, MO
Carthage, MO
Lexington, MO
Belmont, MO
Baton Rouge, LA
Mill Springs, KY
Honey Springs, OK
Mine Creek, MO

Just a start,
Mark

Cleburne's division held back much of a Union corps -- but the Yanks were attacking piecemeal -- at Ringgold Gap.

I've read the "same" statistic except that it had the ACW having 1000+ actions in which each side had One thousand plus men, not 6000.

And 6000 is a pretty big division, isn't it? I think half that would be closer to average,especially for the Union. Reb divisions of 4 brigades,okay, maybe so.

Donlowry

Thanks Don…I guess.

But the point is that I find it difficult – no, I find it impossible – to believe with the tens of thousands of works published on the American Civil War in the last 144 years, no one has ever thought to research and publish a comprehensive list of civil war battles by numbers engaged. Such a list must be out there somewhere.

A colleague of mine at the University of Minnesota came across a study in their library of how many men of Scandinavian descent fought on the Union side in the American Civil War. Financed by several Scandinavian immigrant organizations, the study was completed in the 1920's by going through close to a million Union enlistment records and comparing the last names with a list of Scandinavian last names; a million records one at a time by hand. If someone can take the time and trouble to find "Anderson" in a million records, surely someone in the last century and a half must have compiled a list of civil war battles by number of men engaged.

A couple of sources.

link

link

Terry

You will have to dig, but this study was done to determine preservation priorities for Civil War battlefield sites. The site includes summary information for each battle identified. I'm sure there are additional actions of the size you mention that did not make the list.

link

There were easily a 1,000 that make for very playable scenarios and numbered less than 6,000 men per side (assuming that we count encounters that were well under that number) JR2 scenario books (the base rules and scenario set) have several examples.

I believe I have a fact book on the bookshelf (at the moment I'm watching the Twins vs Yankees in my local bar) that might shed some light on the subject.

Cheers,

The Bandit

There's a little booklet out there that claims to list every action/battle/skirmish and has the casualties for each. I got it at Gettysburg about 20 years ago and I just dug through about every pile in the attic to try and locate it… no luck. Can't remember if it listed numbers engaged, but it had the name and the date for each action/battle/skirmish and the last page was the total casualties for the entire war.

From the responses on this thread, from other sources, and my own research, this is the status of this thread so far:

• I found no one-stop comprehensive reference source that lists all the brigade-sized and larger battles of the American Civil War organized by numbers and/or units engaged.

• The 20 or so major civil war battles – Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, Antietam, Chickamauga, Shiloh, etc. – are thoroughly documented both in print and on the internet. Break out your favorite search engine, enter your major battle name, and you'll have very little trouble finding descriptions and maps of these major battles along with other major items of interest to the miniature wargamer; the name and deployments of the units involved, their strengths, commanders, etc.. Even the more detailed information of interest to a wargamer setting up an ACW scenario – how units were armed, line-of-march, battlefield location , and formations adopted of/by units, detailed descriptions of terrain and battlefield conditions, etc. – are available on these famous battles with a little modest digging.

• But similar information on the less famous 1500 or more brigade, division, and corps-sized battles is not so easy to find. The names of all ACW engagements from skirmishes to epic battles can be found in part II of the venerable Dyer's Compendium to the War of the Rebellion which is available in print and CD. My copy came bundled in my Official Records CD. But Dyer's contains no worthwhile detailed information on these engagements; even the size of the battle must be extrapolated from its name or casualties and in many cases even that meager information is lacking.

• The links kindly provided by some correspondents in this thread contain some fairly lengthy lists of ACW battles along with some more detailed information and guides to sources for more information. Thanks.

• What this thread has revealed to me is the need for a Wargamer's Guide to the American Civil War. This would be a book containing all brigade-sized and larger civil war battles organized by numbers engaged with a description of each battle geared to the information required by a miniature wargamer/scenario designer; units involved, their strengths and armament, their location at the beginning of the battle, their battle-readiness, a detailed map and description of the topology of the battlefield, and a description of the commanders and their ability ratings. This book would not be specific to any one set of ACW rules.

A worthwhile endeavor for some dedicated wargamer or ACW enthusiast. If I was 15 years younger and in better health I'd be tempted to give it a try. But, I'll pass on the idea in the hope that someone might take on the task.

mosby65

I think that would be a very large book. A website might be better.

donlowry

Now that's a thought; a central place on the internet for ACW battle researchers to deposit their work with wargame-useful detail in a common wargame-useful format. Of course, there would have to be some incentive for them to do so.

It would indeed be a large book, especially if you include work dividing up the larger battles – Gettysburg, Chickamauga, Antietam, etc. – into wargame-useable division and corps-sized engagements.

Hello mosby65

For Gettysburg Buford's dimounted cavalry vrs Heth's division would be a good refight.

cheers
Edward

Many cavalry actions would fit the size limits.

I would also say that there were many, many more than "20 or so" large battles. There may be only 20 that the average person knows of, but there were at least that number in the Eastern theater alone.

In the mid-sized battle area, I'd recommend a few: Chantilly (Ox Hill), New Market, and Cedar Creek.