"HMGS East financial meltdown" Topic

Maybe the financial data is too complex for many people to understand, so let's express it in terms of a game of Axis & Allies.
Instead of buying infantry and tanks to hold off the Russians, Americans & British, the Board decided to buy six weapons rolls and go for the Atomic Bomb. Only time will tell if all they got was the secret sub.

So what's it to you as long as the Society makes money?

Honestly, it doesn't matter a bit. The hobby will go on one way or another. The discussion was about increased costs for 2010, I was restating what others (such as the event coordinator) had said about additional staff being needed for the loading dock area. Under the present model, that would mean additional costs in that area.

And thank you for the information about the vouchers, I know they were given as prizes in the past (the first three Featherstone tournaments for example) but did not know they were given as compensation for volunteers.

FYI The thread "GW tables at Historicon" is relevent to this financial discussion.

!!!!! HistoriGorkaGAMAcon 2010 !!!!!

"Charging the vendors a percentage of their reciepts instead of a table fee would be an interesting strategy"………………..priceless.

Honest to God, where do you guys come up with some of this stuff; the more you make, the more you pay, what a brilliant concept.

If that awarding winning formula was put into effect, I'd go to Historicon in 2010, sell for three days, find the best top shelf strip joint in the state of Maryland and blow my bankroll there on Saturday night, then "report" my earnings for the con as .67 cents.

So now the government is running wargaming shows too?

"!!!!! HistoriGorkaGAMAcon 2010 !!!!!"

This "joke" about the con's name just gets sadder and sadder. Don't hurt yourself coming up with the next knee slapper. Sigh.

"67 cents…67 cents…whoowhooowhoopwooop…" – Curly Howard.

"Don't hurt yourself coming up with the next knee slapper."

!!!!! Histo-Waaaagh!!!-con 2010 !!!!!

Easy. Barely broke a sweat.

Allen

Ok – I'll try one…. Histori-flop 2010 …<Ork baby cry> WAAAGGGHHHHHHHHH </Ork baby cry>

You're right, barely a sweat!

Cocktail-Con?

Just one question. Have we every gotten the minutes of meetings that have been missing most of this year? When will we catch up with that?

Short answer no. I expect to never see board minutes posted again ever. Oh and it is 18 months now not a year.
VR
James Mattes

Double G,
I have been asked to attend a few different conventions which used the percentage of sales concept for table fees. One convention you had to pay bot htable fees and a percentage of sales. This happens when the event is held at a business location or a college university.

I will not attend those conventions.

Rudy:
I agree. I wouldn't go to those "percentage of sales" either. If someone is seriously offering this concept up for HMGS it is a sure fire way to kill the vendor hall. (Although I'm aware that would be probably be on some gamers' desired agenda.)

Short answer no. I expect to never see board minutes posted again ever. Oh and it is 18 months now not a year.

I don't think he's joking! And I thought we were kept in the dark before. I wonder if this a conscious decision or just laziness?

Rudy; thanks for the info, a percentage AND table fees, how about a pint of blood and your first born child too? Gee, is it ok if you make any money or are you just there for fund and amusement.

MasterCaster; if you want to see a major wargaming convention go down the drain, watch what happens should the dealers not attend.

We've had this discussion, but it's my best guess 70% of the attendees go just to shop, probably 99% are there to shop AND game, about 1% go just to game, don't spend .05 cents in the dealer hall and live all weekend long off of the free water in the gaming rooms and any food scraps they find laying around on tables while they are gaming.

And without the dealers spending upwards of 100.00 per table at 300 tables per con, where do they think that money will come from?

Hmmm – splitting historicon into a Trade Show (with some gaming) and a Gaming Show (with flea markets).

Interesting idea, but I don't think it would float. I think that the Vendors view the Games as a way to attract a customer base. I don't know if that is necessarily the situation, however, or if really 70% of the people do show up just to shop, and don't care about the gaming (as Double G suggested).

Although that was what the Williamsburg Military History Weekend (last weekend) essentially was (mostly trade, with some exhibits and gaming). And it was a nice event.

Chuck

We've had this discussion, but it's my best guess 70% of the attendees go just to shop, probably 99% are there to shop AND game, about 1% go just to game…

If I'm doing my math correctly, that means that 29% go to both game and shop (assuming that you meant 99% were there to game and/or shop)?

Assuming that there are roughly 3600 attendees at Historicon, that would result in 1080 (30%) who are running/playing in games during their stay, which I would HIGHLY disagree with. Someone out there has the total GM list and the pre-registration list. Those two together with tournament players HAS to be much greater than a thousand.

vonLoudon: "Just one question. Have we every gotten the minutes of meetings that have been missing most of this year? When will we catch up with that?"

Check hmgs.org/bodminutes.htm. Minutes up through just before Historicon 2009 are posted there. They're going to be re-posted after corrections are made and the Secretary (per our bylaws) signs them but the only ones of which I'm aware that aren't posted are those from and after Historicon.

- Bill

Hey Bill, that link does not seem to work for me…..?

Hey Bill, that link does not seem to work for me…..?

There's an extra period on the end, delete that and it should open up.

If GW had to organize their own 100 table convention at the BCC, what would it cost them?

HMGS should be charging them at least half that amount.

1 day con entry fees are just table scraps from the games sweatshop table.

"HMGS should be charging them at least half that amount."

No offense meant, but this shows just how much you don't understand what is going on. GW is supposedly going to do a lot of advertising through their own magazines and stores to support this con. How about they charge HMGSE for that then? Also, how about then if HMGSE splits all their income – dealers, attendees, etc, as I mean fair is fair, right?

You are assuming (careful that) GW is doing nothing in return. Faulty assumption.

pancerni2 19 Oct 2009 8:57 a.m. PST
…..

You're correct you can't have it both ways and if I have to choose I'd feel much more comfortable with the historical pattern…Historicon and Cold Wars make a healthy surplus, Fall In is break even and the organization has the flexibility to fund other efforts related to the goals of the organization, primarily to promote military history and historical miniatures wargaming. As has been suggested on these pages over the past several years there are any number of programs that could be tried but they may require resources.

*NJH: I readily admit to not paying attention to "other efforts" for quite some time. I'm too busy at work and so have not been able to indulge my fascination with the machinery of HMGSE. I'd appreciate an update on which "other efforts" have been undertaken by HMGSE in the last few years. Knowing what those efforts are, their associated costs, and measured success would be most helpful to the discussion.

Some efforts might not be worth the candle, others might be worth investing more resources. Anybody know?

>GW is supposedly going to do a lot of advertising through their own magazines and stores to support this con.
>

No, to support their con. It costs them NOTHING to fill a page in their own rag.

They are having a convention to gain something from the their own customers, not for the benefit of HMGS members. They should pay the freight. Obviously they think they will profit by co-locating with HMGS or they would not do it, because EVERY decision made by Games Workshop is for the profit of the 3 banks that own it.

On another topic:
Do you really want to try to co-opt the GS [(Games Sweatshop (TM)] Suckers? Then take out an ad in their rag (except that you can't) and invite them to a completely FREE historical convention. HMGS will even pay their hotel bill for one night. THAT would meet the HMGS charter to promote historical gaming, & education.

The HMGS EAST mission is not to precipitate corporate bankruptcy. Though it seems to be a high priority of late.

I admire Pat. He stays on message.

Allen

What is GW selling again at the con? I forget.

While 15mm is the One True Scale, I do dabble with 28mm. I'm not a total Scaleist Bigot.

Hi, Pat. Hey, Bob, something you said hit a nerve. Remember a couple of years or so when all prices just about doubled?I consider paying that every year at every con my "contribution". Still haven't figured out what we got for that raise. Looking forward to seeing you guys on Friday or Saturday. You coming, Pat?

Yawn

If I'm the Pat you are referring to I won't be at FALL IN! I just got back from a tour of the frozen north starting with SOUTHERN FRONT and going on to visit friends and family up to the DC area. I'm back in my Florida Salt Marsh.

Someone mentioned that the prices were raised a few years ago to salt away some money for "education." Actually, while there was a special "education fund," that was an afterthought.

The increases in dues, admissions, and vendor charges occurred in the 2005 time frame, and were intended to salt away a year's budget in management reserves. This was either recommended or endorsed by the representative of King Stringfellow Group who worked with HMGS EAST at the time. In all fairness (I admit I have never been sympathetic to the measure) it is not an unusual policy for corporations. But in my opinion the worst fiscal performance in recent years (since accurate financial records have been in vogue) was FY04, which included the catastrophic Timonium Adventure (something about Baltimore is terrifying.) For FY 04, which ran from October 03 through September 04 the net loss was around $4K.

I can remember pointing out that the existing cash reserves were adequate to cover 31 years as bad as our worst. With the $250K in the bank it would be twice as long.

My recommendation was not to screw up for that many years. I had no idea how creatively HMGS EAST could spend money.

The special education fund as a $5 USD chunk of the dues increase was an afterthought. That fund is EOE 9034-00 "Education Fund Restricted." It had nothing to do with the current fiscal situation since nothing has been spend on it since 2007.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

Yep, You be the one. I should just call you WKPP and you'll know immediately. LOL. Well enjoy the sunshine. We're supposed to have a fairly nice weekend up here bordering Yankeeland. I'll make the perilous crossing at Leesburg on Friday. And again on Saturday.

TMP link
>
The negative buzz about BCC Historigins continues unabated. Several veterans of the "Education Day" fiasco confirm that East ate $10,000 for the privledge.
>

Previously it was said to have been a donation by the BCC…

Damn, for $10,000 I could run an entire convention! NOVAG ran two-day shows at the splendiforuos WestPark Hotel in Tyson's Corner, Virginia for $2-3000 or so back in the early 2000s. I don't know what HMGS spent that $10K on, but that sure seems like a lot to me.

Yes, we did John. Nice little cons that were squashed by Fall-In. Now all we have is game days in the Washington area put on by NOVAG and WAGS. I think we need a nice con.
That's why I attended the nice VA con in Williamsburg last year and hope to go again.
But fellow HMGS members, we need to get the financial picture from those in charge sooner than later. Time to ask questions, no demand answers for what's going on.