"FT3? playtesting? whats in the works?" Topic

OK this may be completely premature..
its not a troll, promise
I know stats are being tested for recent new releases (ok the IJSN ones arent official either even though I got them from tuffers in 2002)

buut
having seen FT lite..

im not asking for dates or deadlines

just wondering if those in the know can say what work is bing done/roadmap etc..

more fleetbooks? rules compendium?

if there is a playtest group how its been going etc

any teasers?
etc

The "playtest" rules for many of the GZG games (Dirtside, Full Thrust, FMA) have been in the works for years. Only a privileged few who are the anointed members of the playtest list are allowed to view them and there never seems to be any update that us poor, unwashed masses can obtain.

I'm sure Jon is a nice guy and by all accounts he is an excellent retailer. However, despite the support I have given his company over the years playing his games, attending GZG cons, espousing his rules, and purchasing his miniatures, I feel like a second-class citizen due to my inability to get rules updates over the course of the last decade. It's why I no longer choose to spend my money with GZG. I've since moved on to other games and manufacturers and will be unlikely to return.

It's all a conspiracy… against YOU!!!
I know… I've had those rules for quite a while now… but was warned not to show them to you.

That's fine … it doesn't have an effect on my wallet. I've moved on, and I am OK with that. I'm sure that there are others who are less vocal.

From Dirtside II, I moved to Future War Commander. I play Starmada instead of Full Thrust. I prefer FAD to Stargrunt II. I play various skirmish games over FMAS. I still buy lots of miniatures (far more than I can ever paint!) but I do so from other manufacturers.

Like I said, I have absolutely nothing against Jon as a person and I'm sure he is a fantastic guy. I just choose to spend my money with a company where I feel more valued as a customer, or at least *as* valued as their other customers.

I can't see the logic in that, it's not as if he's mocking you as he uses your money to light his fire. You seem to invest a lot of emotional energy in what is, literally, a business transaction. Where you spend your money is, of course, entirely up to you, but GZG provide excellent delivery services and really great miniatures. Surely that is more than enough to expect from a manufacturer? If it makes you feel any better I'm not on the playtest list either, but I don't feel at all devalued.

At every GZG East Coast Convention, there have been multiple playtest games run using rules in the works for all the GZG game systems. There are playtest and beta rules on the web for Stargrunt Phalons and KV. Full Thrust has lots of beta rules and fleets on the web.

People have been encouraged to try out these rules and give feedback, but very few reports have come back.

"People have been encouraged to try out these rules and give feedback, but very few reports have come back".

I assume that is due to the Kravak wiping them out. Supposedly, they are quite fearsome…..

Actually, Jon doesn't sell rules, he sells figures which can be used for any game system you so fancy, such as FWC, FAD or Starmada, which – ironically – are all open source game systems that can use any figure.

I don't see the problem – GZG more or less got out of selling rules to concentrate on selling figures.

I'm quite with thego with the flow attitude of jon.. I like it its refreshing..

Alas there are people who insist on using 'the rules' espcially in competitions. homebrew ships generally get disallowed.

while the FT remixed pdf consolidates things..
the appearance of FT light/lite piqued my curiousity as to what IS going on

as far as soliciting feedback on betas/ssds goes it seems to be pretty informal..

selling new miniature lines without official stats is hard as you try getting others to agree to using unofficial stats!

Well of course it's only reasonable to say "I like Full thrust, and say, when's 3rd edition coming out?"

I was only responding to the idea that Mr.Tuffley is somehow not "valuing customers" by letting the rules aspect slide in favor of sculpting and casting. I suppose ground zero games is a lot more catchy of a name than 'ground zero miniatures' but it seems to me that the reality is now the later, which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

But I hear ya' Bob, I'd like to know too: when is third edition coming out anyway?

I can't see what would be changed anyway, the rules work very, very well as they are.

An update should only be put out if it fixes something, and I don't see anything to fix. Updates just for the sake of reselling is the domain of others.

DS6151, you clearly have missed the years of arguing about fighters and whether they are broken or not, the discussion of ECM and Stealth, how to make the aliens 'alien' yet not uberpowerful . . . Oh dear me, so many 'breaks'.

OTOH there is some progress on an FT3 in that 97% of the gorundwork ahs been knocked out, it just rmeains for finalising and printing/filing the data in one concise form ( Which will not resemble FT:Cross Dimensions very much at all, in case you are wondering :) ).

I can say no more and will not. Fnord.

rorrim- because gzg haven't released any updates your playing the pile of radio-active sludge that is CWC? Why not use the rules you already have, instead of a dark age set.

hmm. thanks for the info covert walrus.. slightly disappointed jon didnt respond but thanks all the same..

FT has had its definaite quirks but im glad its been approached and developed the way it has as an open and flexible system not vast and talmudical like SFB or starfire
(as much as I enjoyed playing both of those for many years)

hmm…who is covert walrus? Dave Billinghurst? just trying to remember my kiwis from the gzg-l heyday..

if you are DB, please move/backup your great site off geociities..
it closes soon.

ow cross dimaensions? just looking at it now..
I'd seen hugh's remix, but didnt know that Phil and Karsten were involved in something NEW. grr I shall have words.

Nope, not David B here. :)

But I will let him know – Can't say as it'll be quick as he's working on a PBeM version of Traveller at present.

just took a mirror of geocities.com/dbb1965

also found some lovely stuff the NZ warlords have done to FT, though there is a thread on their forum abut how theyve coped with overloading and unbalancing it :)

That is pretty good – David informed me yesterday that much of his stuff was included on this site link which might be the same one as the one you have.

I first heard that FT 3rd edition would be coming out in 2002, and that I should stop working on Delta-V (later Attack Vector) because FT 3rd Edition would change the landscape of space gaming forever…

If you're tired of waiting for FT 3e, there are other choices out there – I publish a couple of them.

If you still want FT, I've got the only FT rule set that's still in print – Power Projection: Fleets.

"In Print"? Maybe, but all the FT rules are avialable as PDFs for free. Not that PP:F isn't a very good game in its own right . . .

And FT3 may not chnage "everything' but it'll still be a great game for players who dislike the brain haemorages of SFB.:)

Walrus: I've found that some people REALLY don't like buying PDFs. Not sure why, but it's a noticeable chunk of the market.

Different games for different folks. I know people who've tried both and prefer SFB to FT.

So, just another late-chime-in. Jon is not currently SELLING the PDFs – they're free. :)

As to FT3, I've been directly involved in a largish number of playtests. Generally, there are some minor tweaks, and a few major changes. Fighter/anti-fighter combat has changed to try to "better balance" fighters (For what little it's worth, my assessment is that if you play with people that intentionally abuse loopholes, like taking a half a billion fighters in a system where very heavy fighters maybe carry 4-6 squadrons, the better answer is "do not game with such munchkins"), and shield mechanics have changed. The changes have created a slightly different turn flow, but for the most part, it's FT with some updates.

That said, Jon does focus more heavily (like 99.9999%) on the miniatures aspect of his business. He has a small cadre of volunteers working on various rules sets, but retains a large degree of control (which, to be fair, both guarantees that he'll "bless" the result, but also slows down the already slow process). I would not hold my breath on waiting for FT 3, but then I am mostly pretty happy with FT 2 with new stuff (like UNSC weapons and ships and the like) available on Star Rangers site.

<shrug>

cheers Mr L.

tis all as I figured.. its just ive been introducing new folks who are unused to the workings and exigencies of the benevolent Tuffley empire and dont want to invest time/cash in a new system that isnt "alive".

squeezing a word out of jon would have been grouse, but you and some of the playtest bods have given me something to keep the newbs happy and playing..

" I've found that some people REALLY don't like buying PDFs. Not sure why, but it's a noticeable chunk of the market."

Probably, as ALL the people I've spoken to in my country would rather have a PDF as they can avoid the often ruinous cost of importing a paper-and-staples book into the country ( Seriously. . . A $40 USD book will cost up to $120.00 NZD ). AN dsince wqe have no manufacturers for minis either, we have to save costs somewhere.

Again this might be why we get so disgruntled with the common cry of American gamers of "Why can't we buy Range X in our beloved country?" when we don't even have FoW any more ( Production moved to Malaysia and the cost doubled recently ) and that's technically a local p[roduct; Compared to your already vast choice, its rather disheartening to hear that commoent. But taht's another story ;)

And bobblanchett, FT is certainly 'alive'. . . it just has it's long naps that's all. Just tell your players it's the anti_GW – You don't have to renew your force every couple of months to fit new rules/minis/updates. . . . :)

ive dreamt up quite a few things to say … but believe me its just theres something indefinably visceral about holding the book that no amount of tub thumping by me can match ;)

they open the book, their little brown eyes sparkle and you see the "aha" moment as they start fighting the boskonian grand fleet in their heads..

makes them feel part of the club, kinda thing..
once they have a ship of their own painted up theyre hooked..
I get a few players by giving them some unpainted lead.. it works sometimes!

newbs these days used to being captured by or overmarketed at need the glossies, playing out of featherstone or trying a magazine/ragnarok set of rules or homemade rules gets me "keep going grandpa" looks and I'm only 41!

sometimes I wonder wether the yoof of today have the experimental spirit!

newbs these days used to being captured by or overmarketed at need the glossies, playing out of featherstone or trying a magazine/ragnarok set of rules or homemade rules gets me "keep going grandpa" looks and I'm only 41!

sometimes I wonder wether the yoof of today have the experimental spirit!<q/>

But would we really have been any different if we had grown up today?

I know what you mean about feeling left out because in a very small fandom community, having FMA or FT3 is a sign that you're in the Inner Circle. I've played and loved GZG products for years and have learned to live with the cryptic references on the mailing list. It's a nice community with nice people and the elitism isn't intentional.

OTOH, the minis are great and the published rules are pretty good as is and you can get them for free. I avail myself of the best of it, and I don't get caught up waiting for future rules that may or may not ever come out at all and may or may not actually be better than what we have now.

At least with revisions the way they are, GZG cant be accused of taking the GW "Nth Edition" route to commercial success. Critics should take note, because if that route were explored, i suspect there would be more vociferous moans!