"The Art of War" Topic

According to the program "The Art of War" on The History International channel, Lee lost Gettysburg b/c he wasn't a practioner of Sun-Tzu's military philosophy when he orderd Pickett's Charge. Miracles never cease.

Did they cite a specific one of his maxims or did they just make a blanket statement?

I don't have a problem with the statement. I don't think they were saying that he lost because he did not heed Sun-Tzu's advice. I think the point of the program is to compare Sun-Tzu to generals in other eras. The supposition is that Sun-Tzu is always right. I don't neccessarily agree with that 100% but the man has a philosophy on war that is followed to this day. He must have done most things right. :-)

A blanket statement to the effect that Sun-Tzu never would've ordered Pickett's Charge and it was "suicide" for Lee to order it. If only Lee had read Sun-Tzu, he would've been a better, more enlightened general and things might have been different.

I read Sun-Tzu after reading much other military history. I won't take anything away from Sun-Tzu, but by the time I read him, I was not learning anything new.

Many times generals win by not following the 'rules' in one particular instance. That is why I think of war as an art more than a science. There are rules 'of thumb' which will usually win but the art is to know when breaking the 'rules' will gain an advantage and a win.
IMHO.

You know, Sun Tzu was pretty much unknown outside of China until fairly recently – certainly not at the time of the ACW

You know, it's a bit of a stretch since Sun Tzu would not have wanted to get into Lee's situation in the first place – he (or they – there is this school of thought that the Art of War was written by more than one person) would not want to get into a one-sided long war (no one profits from a long war)

Some quotes from Roger T. Ames' introduction to his translation, Sun-Tzu, The Art of Warfare, 1993. Of interest is the existence of two ancient Chinese militarist schools, one of which, the Sun Pin, was buried a long time ago but was also part and parcel of the Sun-Tzu tradition. Apparently, the Sun Pin took a slightly different methodological approach, relying more upon examples from history to illustrate its points. Either way,

"The central militarist tenet that there are no fixed strategic advantages (shih) or positions (hsing) that can, in all cases, be relied upon to achieve victory, must be considered when we decide what kind of coherence we can expect from what was a growing body of work. Consistent with the principle that each situation must be taken on its own terms, different periods with different social, political, and material conditions would require different military strategies to be effective…." pg. 27

I think Gettysburg in 1863 should be taken on its own terms or at the very least compared in its own terms. Moreover, after giving a brief perusal to Sun-Tzu this evening, I wouldn't doubt that R.E. Lee would‘ve been familiar with every single "axiom" outlined by Sun-Tzu and many that weren't, and not because Sun-Tzu did or didn't outlined them, but b/c they were, are and have been readily apparent to people throughout the ages.

At the same time, there is a certain distinct sense of apples and oranges.

Sun-tzu's first job interview pg. 32-33:

"The King dispatched… 180 of his court beauties from the palace. Sun Wu (Sun-tzu) divided them into two contingents, placed the King's two favorite concubines as unit commanders, and armed them all with halberds. He then instructed the women, "Do you know where your heart, your right and left hands and your back are?" The women replied, "We do indeed". "When I say ‘Front', he said, " face in the direction of your heart; when I say ‘Left', face in the direction of your left hand; when I say ‘Right', face in the direction of your right hand; when I say ‘Back', face in the direction of your back." The women agreed. Having set out the various drill commands, he then laid out the commander's broad-axe, and went through and explained his orders several times. Thereupon, he drummed for them to face right, but the women just burst into laughter.

Master Sun said, "Where drill orders are less than clear and the troops are not familiar enough with the commands, it is the fault their commander." Again going through and explaining his orders several times, he then drummed for them to face left. Again the women just burst into laughter.

Master Sun addressed them, "Where the drill orders are less than clear and the troops are not familiar enough with the commands, it is the fault of their commander. But where they have already been made clear and yet are not obeyed, it is the fault of their supervising officers." He then called for the beheading of the right and left unit commanders.

The King, viewing the proceedings from his balcony, saw that Master Sun was in the process of executing his two favorite concubines, and was appalled. He rushed an attendant down to Master Sun with the command, " I am already convinced of the Commander's ability in the use of the military. If I don't have these two concubines, my food will be tasteless. It is my wish that you do not behead them."

Master responded, "I have already received your mandate as Commander, and while I am in command of the troops, I am not bound by your orders." He thereupon beheaded the two unit commanders as an object lesson. "

I don't think Robert E. Lee would have gained anything from a study of Sun-Tzu's, The Art of Warfare, nor would it have changed his plans--in any beneficial way--at Gettysburg.

Anyway, this was a long response to a bad TV program.

"It appears we have appointed our worst generals to command forces, and our most gifted and brilliant to edit newspapers. In fact, I discovered by reading newspapers that these editor/geniuses plainly saw all my strategic defects from the start, yet failed to inform me until it was too late. Accordingly, I am readily willing to yield my command to these obviously superior intellects, and I will, in turn, do my best for the Cause by writing editorials – after the fact."

~Robert E. Lee, 1863

The only way to properly judge the actions of someone in the past, is by examining the environment extant at that time. What intelligence did Lee have. What did his Corps commanders report to him. How did he view the situation in light of his strategic goals. It's only when you examine all of these things, including his personal tendencies, that you can form a reasonable conclusion.

Interesting quotation and very good points. I wonder who was writing those editorials ?

The main probem I had with the TV program was that it was glorifying the East at the expense of the West through the wholesale ignorance of both.