"Prussian Navy?" Topic

Prussia had some costline right, and I assume she had some ports? She had Russia and Sweden as neighbours and competitors and they both had sizeable and experienced Navies. What did Prussia have in terms of Naval capacity?

Ive never heard of her fielding anything, while I can beleive she might not have seen the point in tying to foce her way in a naval arms race, she must have had some sort of flotilla for home defence. How did she protect her tradeships from pirates? How would she prevent a Swedish/Russian/French blockade of her coastal cities?

Does any one know anything about this? Prussian arent my favourite army or state, but this has been nagging me for the last few days.

Next to nothing apparently: link

They had a small navy created for the war, but as fas as I know it struggled against the more established navies of the Baltic seapowers. Here's a start;

link

You can read all about Prussia's unfortunate and short lived navy in the second edition of "The Army of Frederick the Great" by Christopher Duffy (Emperors Press).

That link is for the SYW. (In which they lost the itty bitty navy they did have, in a disastrous adventure against the Swedes.)

In the Napoleonic period they had about half a dozen small sloops and some even smaller ships.

[How did she protect her tradeships from pirates?]

Prussian ships tended not to go anywhere near pirates (who at any rate were pretty much extinct by the mid-1750s) But since all the *legal* Kolonialhandel was locked into various national mercantile systems, Prussian trade ships didn't go across the Atlantic anyway. They got their Kolonialwaren – tea from India, for example, or tobacco from the Carolinas – after it had gotten back to Britain.

Most Prussian seagoing trade was in the Baltic, and with other European states, especially the Dutch. They had a minuscule trade with the USA, since most US-German trade was carried out by the Hanse cities of Bremen and Hamburg. (The Prussians got most of their American goods via Hamburg.)

[How would she prevent a Swedish/Russian/French blockade of her coastal cities?]

1. Either don't get into a war with Sweden and Russia. (Oops! Too late!), OR

2. Have a powerful sea-going ally like Britain on your side.

In 1805 when the Prussians made the deal with Napoleon to take Hannover, for example, the British retaliated by shutting down Prussian trade so fast it made their heads spin. There was a mighty moment of sobriety in Berlin that changed many minds about whether they could ever ally with France.

Indeed, after Napoleon crushed their armies in 1806, the little Prussian fortresses that kept holding out behind the lines did so because of regular re-supply by British and Swedish ships. In 1807 the Prussians and British scraped together a modest corps under Blücher, based on the big Baltic island of Rügen, because their allies' navies could keep it in operation and theoretically land it anywhere and extract it before Napoleon could do much about it. That was their plan, anyway, but then Friedland happened and made it all moot.

Prussia had plenty of excellent harbors, and even an Atlantic harbor (Emden), but there was no way it could compete against the merchant fleets of the Hanse cities or the Dutch, so it didn't try. The only serious effort they ever made was very early, under the Great Elector, when they actually acquired an African coastal colony (!) and dabbled in the slave trade for a while. There were Prussian slave ships as late as the 1740s.

If you wish a quick overview of Prussia's fleet readiness, check the following link from the SYW project.

link

Afterwards, check the campaigns between Prussian and Sweden to follow the naval actions along the coast of Pomeranian. I seem to recall some etchings of galleys.

On a side note:

I read a request for help from Kronoskaf.com with their expansion to another server so as to accommodate the increase in data.

Kronoskaf.com has been an essential source of "Free" information for me that I would have otherwise have invested in books. I am sure I am not alone in that respect.

Even one Canadian dollar from each visitor would help the SYW Project. If you do contribute, save the email transaction as it is tax deduct able. At least in my country it is.

Cheers,
Robert
18thcenturysojourn.blogspot.com

timurilank, thanks for the information. I fully agree with you regarding Kronoskaf.com and immediately contributed CAD$ 15 to a worthy cause.

Errm..Emden is not on the Atlantic.

According to Erich Groner[s 'Die deutsschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945' there isn't really very much before 1870. I lists one coastal vessel in 1816 and the next vessel in the 1840's.

Indeed in the Schleswig-Holstein of 1864 the naval actions against Denmark fell to Austria.

Emden does, however, have direct access to the North Sea, and from there direct access to the Atlantic. Other Prussian ports, like Stettin, would not have that direct access, having to sail through the Belt and the Sound, both controlled by Denmark.

Milo, piracy as not extinct by 1750. Classic West Indian piracy was in serious decline, but I wouldn't have fancied sailing into the Malay Archipelago at that time without guns!

[Emden does, however, have direct access to the North Sea, and from there direct access to the Atlantic. ]

Exactly.

Little Emden was the closest thing Prussia ever had to an "Atlantic" harbor. And it was totally cut off from the rest of Prussia for generations. They dabbled with expanding it on a couple of occasions – it never had more than about 4500 inhabitants – but the expense of doing so wasn't worth it, since they couldn't have persuaded enough trade bound for the Netherlands or the Hanse cities to go there, instead. (And even if it had gone there, how would it have gotten to Prussia?)

[Milo, piracy as not extinct by 1750. Classic West Indian piracy was in serious decline, but I wouldn't have fancied sailing into the Malay Archipelago at that time without guns!]

But what, praytell, would a Prussian ship have been doing in the Malay Archipelago?

Or for that matter, in any trans-oceanic port?

Unless they were sailing to China, pretty much the rest of the world's harbors were closed to direct trade with Prussians, or anybody else not part of that particular imperial system that owned whatever colony / harbor we're talking about.

BTW, just to give you some sense for how small the Prussian merchant marine was in the 18th century, the Hanse city of Hamburg had about 1,200 ships listed as home-ported there. All of Prussia (!) had fewer than 300.

The Prussian merchant marine was essentially: Bremen, Hamburg, and Lübeck. Their shippers carried about 90% of Prussia's outgoing trade, and their merchant houses handled about 70% of Prussia's imports.

No piracy Mr Milo?
The Corsairs of Tripoli might seem to dispute that assertion.
Italians living near the coastline up to the end of the C18th were in grave danger from pirates looking forslaves.
Indeed, the Swedes were at war from 1798-1803 with Yussuf Pascha, the Bey of Tripoli, for seizing their ships. Equally, the Danes sent a squadron to "negotiate" with the Bey in 1797.
And aren't you some sort of American? (apologies if you are not). Have you heard, "from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli". Something about pirates I believe.

For the third time: Prussian merchantmen of the 18/19th centuries rarely got anywhere near pirates.

But if they HAD, then I'm sure they'd have "protected" their ships from the Algerian corsairs in the same way that everybody else did: by paying-off the Algerians!

One can also try the following,

link

You are so positive, my Milo! It must be nice to be so sure.
Paying tribute, as you write, was the accepted way of dealing with the corsairs but it did not always work.They could be shall we say difficult?
Can I refer you to the Swedish war with the Bey?
In 1796 Yussuf Pascha of Tripoli took 8 Swedish ships because his tribute was late. Of course the captured ships were kept as interest on the delayed tribute. When the tribute arrived the ship carrying it got a Tripolitanian cargo and while on its way was taken by a French privateer. Yussuf Bascha demanded compensation from the swedish government for his lost cargo and he was not modest about the value of the cargo. Also three ships boys that had been forcibly converted sneaked out of Tripoli. As compensation for this crime against Islam Yussuf demanded 15000 peso duro from the swedish government.
When the swedish response was slow and negative Yussuf declared war. It was his stated policy to always be at war with someone. Thirteen swedish ships were soon brought to Tripoli, the ships and crews were thoughly plundered by the privateer crews, the loot being their salary.
So, payment might not always work.
You also need to look at how far the corsairs were prepared to sail.Into the Atlantic was not unknown in their search for booty.
Finally, I am sure you have ironclad proof no Prussian merchantman or even independant trader on another vessel ever ventured within reach of the pirates of Tripoli but surely this restriction suggested some sort of Prussian navy was not a luxury.At any rate I am only challenging this statement of yours "Pirates (who at any rate were pretty much extinct by the mid-1750s)". Do you stand by this?

@ Milo, I know this is only Wiki but I have no way of copying from my own books.
Still it suggests how far pirates were willing to travel.

"The Barbary Corsairs, sometimes called Ottoman Corsairs or Barbary Pirates, were Muslim pirates and privateers who operated from North Africa from the time of the Crusades (11th century) until the early 19th century. Based in North African ports such as Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers, Salé, and other ports in Morocco, they sailed mainly along the stretch of northern Africa known as the Barbary Coast.[1] Their predation extended throughout the Mediterranean, south along West Africa's Atlantic seaboard, and into the North Atlantic as far north as Iceland, and they primarily commandeered western European ships in the western Mediterranean Sea. In addition, they engaged in Razzias, raids on European coastal towns, to capture Christian slaves to sell at slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco."

So if they look like pirates, smell like pirates and taste like pirates, what do you think they are?

[At any rate I am only challenging this statement of yours "Pirates (who at any rate were pretty much extinct by the mid-1750s)". Do you stand by this?]

No, that's fine. I concede that pirates still existed in the 1750s. But since one of the original questions asked how the Prussians protected their ships from pirates, I thought it was an irrelevant sidetrack to start pointing out that pirates still existed in Malaysia, or Algeria… when Prussian ships didn't go there.

[Finally, I am sure you have ironclad proof no Prussian merchantman or even independant trader on another vessel ever ventured within reach of the pirates of Tripoli….]

If you find an exception or two over the decades, it won't break my heart. But I do actually know a bit about this subject (German overseas trade and commerce), having written a book on it. I've gone through the port records for many of these harbors in northern Germany and looked at the consular files with the registers of ships, citing their origins, destinations, cargo, crew, fees paid, etc. I can tell you who insured the ships, and when and why the insurance rates went up. (French privateers? Insurance rates went sky-high. Algerian pirates..? Never heard of them.)

So yes. I'm reasonably sure.

:)

Well thank you Milo.
Your final and entirely satisfying explanation was most acceptable and, to my mind, resolves the issue of the existence of pirates. What, out of curiosity, is the name of your book?

I must admit that one wasn't bad as knock-down replies go…. ;-)

It was not my intention to "knock-down" Milo, as you call it.
I do not believe in being so rude to someone.
He did not seem to like his assertions challenged but I am possibly misinterpreting this.
He did eventually explain himself properly and I thank him for this.I am sure he is a knowledgeable person and his book was well recieved.

LOL There might not have been a navy of any significanse – but – Prussia compensated this shortcoming by giving it's hussars seaborne qualities. I recall Belling's hussars really defeated the Swedish fleet? ALso in the western campaigns Prussian hussars seized some French ships in the sound of Emden in 1758. The latter action was suported by some British ships.
I also read in Szabos book Frederick hired a freebuster, an Englishmen, who operated in the Adriatic sea. I think it was in 1759.

Christian

Christian,

That is bizarre. Which Prussian Hussar regiment was that, the 5th or 7th, as Bleckwenn does not mention Emden on the list of battles? I can imagine the Royal Navy would like to claim the ships as prizes, but my understanding of the 5th Hussars and their lust for wealth, I am sure they had an accountant or two and a lawyer on their staff.

Cheers,
Robert

I also read in Szabos book Frederick hired a freebuster, an Englishmen, who operated in the Adriatic sea. I think it was in 1759.

The story is told in Duffy, (The Army of Frederick the Great, 2nd Ed.).

In May 1757 Cap. Maccaffee was cruising for French ship in the Central Mediterranean with a Liverpool privateer called "King of Prussia". He is not sure if this was on behalf of Prussia.
However in September 1758 Frederick issued letter of marque to British Privateer.
Four ships have been identificated:

Jacob Merryfield's 12 gun "Prinz Ferdinand"
Hugh Caine's 34 gun "Lissa"
John Wake's 16 gun "Embden" (sic!)
Charles Ratcliffe's "Lancashire Witch".

The victims were primarily French, Spanis, Swedish and Austrian Adriatic merchantmen, the favourite cruising area being the Central Mediterranean.

Frederick lost interest in the matter as soon as he realized that the enemies had no intention in breaking the prussian trade and on March 7, 1760 forbade the issuing of any further letters of marque. The income was only 11.091 thalers (1/1000 of the cost a campaign).

Interstingly enough, Charles Ratcliffe cruised for Austrian ship until on May 5, 1760 was captured by an armed merchantman armed by the Trieste enterpreneur Demetrio Voinovich. Ratcliffe ended his career hanged to his own yardman.

Moreover Duffy claims that there were two Trade Companies:
the "Bengalische Handlungscompagnie", founded 1753, whose first ship was confiscated by the British, and the "Asiatische Handlungscompagnie" with four ship, two of which captured by the French in 1757 at Emden.

Cheers,
Fabrizio