"Wars that ended the wrong way?" Topic

It is something of a cliche in science fiction: Some guy goes back in time, changes something so that Napoleon or Hitler or Caesar or somebody conquers the world, and now things are all screwed up. Some daring agent of the "Time Corps", or whatever, now has to go back to that nexus event and save things.

Usually, if this does not happen, the present world ends up being some sort of dystopia, or maybe we were all just wiped out, or whatever.

Okay, but what if the truth is otherwise? What if there was a war that, in fact, DID go the wrong way? For example:

30YW: Gustavus is destroyed by Tilly or Wallenstein. The Empire consolidates, and nationalism grows in Germany. The Empire evolves into a more unified state. Now, no room for Napoleon, as no power vacuum in central Europe. Also no room for Hitler, as a lot of earlier wars did not happen.

Yes, I am well aware that this might not be the way it would have gone; the more so because I made this up off the top of my head, but it is just an example.

I'm curious about any point of history that YOU think might have gone better some other way.

Well, ALL wars end up the wrong way for at least one of the participants.

Whether, ultimately, the end result would've proven better or worse, I'll go out on a limb and say I would've preferred a Byzantine victory in The Fourth Crusade.

Depends what you mean by "wrong".

"I'm curious about any point of history that YOU think might have gone better some other way."

It would probably have better all around if we'd won the American War of Independance and lost the struggle for India. A lot less blood and treasure expended fighting pointless wars in the Middle East and Asia to keep the route to India open.

If Fania Kaplan had plugged Lenin properly and killed him then Stalin and Trotsky and Co would have bickered for power and the Russian Civil War might have ended with a White victory. That would have been bad for the Russians, since the Whites were not going to run the country well, but hardly worse than collectivisation and the Red Terror.

No Communism in Russia means no Communism in China, Korea, Cambodia. Anti-colonialisation would have proceeded without the stupid economic dogma of Marxism in Africa. The South Americans would not have needed half as many death squads.

Maybe that's not how it would have turned out, but if the Reds hadn't won the Russian Civil War, the potential is for far less grief in the second half of the 20th Century.

"Anti-colonialisation would have proceeded without the stupid economic dogma of Marxism in Africa. The South Americans would not have needed half as many death squads."

Anti- colonialism would still have taken place and if not Marxism then something very much like it would have been the driving philosophy. Fidel Castro wasn't yet a communist when he stormed the Moncada barracks. The essential issue would still have been inequality and near serfdom. The folk that supplied the death squads had been doing so long before there was any inspiration to draw on from Mao.

The Spanish Civil War. A Republican victory may well have brought Fascism up short before the outbreak of WW2 which was by no means inevitable.

I know a lot of Whining Napoloeon fanboys could stop crying over their books if the little pleb had won!

Ditto, Hitler, and the 'way Kewl SS'

John

The "wrong" way is a relative concept. Look at it this way: would you be willing to sacrifice not just yourself, but your family, wife/husband, and your children-- erase them totally from existence-- because on some dimension you deem important historically would be more optimum?

Would you die (and kill everyone you know) so that someone else has a 3% unemployment rate and not a 16% unemployment rate? Or GDP growth of 5% instead of -2%? Or so that the transistor would be discovered a century early?

Naturally the USA would have been a far happier place as part of Her Britannic Majesty's Empire.

Damn those French meddlers

:-)

but if the Reds hadn't won the Russian Civil War, the potential is for far less grief in the second half of the 20th Century

…but possibly more grief in WW2 without the Soviet Union??

As a second choice can I change the result of Bosworth Field?

Even if Richard III did murder the Princes in The Tower (and I personally don't think he did) it would have saved England from over a century of the Tudors. That's got to be worth something!

Battle of Hastings- Harold deserved to win that one!

-Will

Wellspring "The "wrong" way is a relative concept."

Yes, it is. We're just having fun.

wminsing "Battle of Hastings- Harold deserved to win that one!"

I always thought so. England would probably have had a far less centralized government, at least for a while, but any other real difference? I don't know.

I second the Spanish Civil War, especially if it was won by countries such as Britain, France and USA supporting the Republicans with troops and arms.
Hitler may have thought twice after a show of unity.

Gee, I was just going to back and buy some stocks and tell sell the stocks. I would never dream of changing history… yeah right. I would be thumping generals left and right going "NOOO do not charge here!!!" umm King sire, you might want to duck in three, two, …

…it would have saved England from over a century of the Tudors. That's got to be worth something!

Noooooo… then I wouldn't be able to enjoy my DVD box sets of the superb 1970's BBC dramas with Keith Michell as Henry VIII and Glenda Jackson as Elizabeth R. Though it would have spared us their current effort, 'The Tudors'. Dallasty meets Blackadder. History-lite for the hard of thinking. Ahistorical, dumbed-down, sexed-up codswallop. And breathe …

On topic, I'd go back to Marston Moor and make sure Old Noll Cromwell's 'little neck wound' blows his head off. Rupert and Tom Fairfax fight to an honourable draw, Boye survives, the Scots go home, York doesn't surrender and King Charles doesn't lose the North overnight.

To avoid an endless stalemate the Peace of York (1644) brings the Civil Wars to a close seven years early."Yorkshire Common Sense (TM)" prevails over a nice cup of tea and Charles agrees to drop the whole "divine right of kings" attitude. Constitutional parliamentary democracy is established 50 years early and Britain is spared the puritan Commonwealth (with its banning of Christmas and dancing and suchlike frippery) and neatly avoids the Restoration (with its Great Plagues and Fires and dismal 'Restoration Comedies' and suchlike foppery)

There is no longer any need for all the later Jacobite bloodshed. No Pretenders, no Bonnie Princes, no Battle of the Boyne and its subsequent Orange marches, no Culloden and its subsequent Highland genocide. A settled Britain in 1644 can avoid fighting itself for the next hundred years and concentrate properly on fighting the French! ;0)

"…but possibly more grief in WW2 without the Soviet Union??"

The actual solution for both fascism and communism is for either Austria to win the APW or France to win the FPW.

No Prussian Empire, no revanche, no WW1, no Russian Revolution, no Treaty of Versailles, no nazis, no WW2, no Cold War.

Peace in our time in fact!

France to win the FPW

…and at least we'd have a use for all those forts the Victorian's built along the North Downs!

The major problem with this train of thought is would the outcome actually cause all of the changes talked of or would you end up with only temporary change, & the end result being worse off than before?

On the other hand, in going on with this fantasy scene, i wonder about the outcome had the US govt. embraced Ho Chi Mihn & accepeted his proposal to be a friend back after the end of ww2 instead of trying to prop up French feelings after the war. Maybe we would not be looking at the Wall with its multitude of names.

The cod war goes the other way and the cod win!

Charles agrees to drop the whole "divine right of kings" attitude

That would have been a miracle all to itself….

If a certain [NOT MENTIONABLE DUE TO DAWGHOUSING RULES] leader hadn't invaded a certain [NOT MENTIONABLE DUE TO DAWGHOUSING RULES], in a vain and possibly deliberately fatuous search for [NOT MENTIONABLE DUE TO DAWGHOUSING RULES], then there would be several thousand people currently living who presently aren't, a couple hundred thousand un-crippled who presently are, several thousand fewer well-armed fanatics all fired-up with an express ticket to Paradise, and a good deal more treasure in the chest than is presently there.

Win-win all around, methinks.

Erm if you are referring to a country in the middle east then a certain nation was settling there before WW2 and both they and many others in the middle east were wanting the British out and would have resorted to violence anyway

America however may have remained isolationist if not attacked by Japan and the heart of the German Reich may have been the main target

"Erm if you are referring to a country in the middle east "

No, the other one, moustaches, berets.

If only Holland had better defended New Amsterdam, the English might have had second thoughts about taking it with a small fleet. I dont know how long the Dutch would have lasted in the New World, but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a Dutch colony lasting until the 1700s. After William the III took over England who would have gotten the colony?

"A settled Britain in 1644 can avoid fighting itself for the next hundred years and concentrate properly on fighting the French! ;0)"

Actually it would have probably concentrated on fighting the Dutch just as it did historically, regardless of any Stuart connections with Orange.

Inquisitor Thaken

England would probably have had a far less centralized government, at least for a while, but any other real difference? I don't know.

The language, of course! Without the french invasion english would be nearer to german (and the vocabulary would not be as extensive as today).
But I guess there would still be this awful "th" …
:-)

Keelhauled "The major problem with this train of thought is would the outcome actually cause all of the changes talked of or would you end up with only temporary change, & the end result being worse off than before?"

Who knows? But war gamers love to speculate. After all, every war game is an exercise in alternate history.

I suppose that, in a sense, every war game is science fiction.

Coren59 "The language, of course! Without the french invasion english would be nearer to german (and the vocabulary would not be as extensive as today). But I guess there would still be this awful "th"…"

There is that. Also, I really love a good wiener schnitzel, especially with potato pancakes and a lot of mushroom gravy.

If only those meddlesome Americans hadn't been so darned AMERICAN in their national character in every war they'd ever fought! Darn them for that! They should have just stayed out of every country's affairs at all times…in fact, they had no right to think they had the rights of natural-born "Englishmen" in the first place! Stupid ill-bred colonists!

Every war America has ever been in, therefore, has ended the wrong way. At least according to the views of the rest of the world…or so I've been told.

"Anti- colonialism would still have taken place …"

Yes. That is what I said.

" … and if not Marxism then something very much like it would have been the driving philosophy."

I don't hold with that. The problem, in any case, is not just the philosophy of Marx as such, but the way it was implemented. Without the victory of Lenin and Stalin the world might have had a far Left wing not committed to prison camps and shooting opponents. And with a clue about economics.

Some countries have tried strong Socialist experiments without dictatorship or total nationalisation of all industry. They haven't done so well. So perhaps we might all have learnt that Marx was talking rot without the need for the Gulags.

Perhaps even if the anti-colonial driving force in Africa and Asia had been Socialist – which seems likely – it need not have been quite so disastrously useless economically. And not driven by Russians with a paranoid sense of isolation.

If Varus had somehow won in the Teutoburg in AD 9, what would have happened if Germania had no longer been beyond the pale.
Although I'm with WMinsing, Harold deserved to win at Hastings, and it would have been better for England if he had won; that probably means that there wouldn't have been a British Empire?
Byzantines to win the Battle of Yarmuk, how different would the Middle East be today?

Given that no avowedly Marxist grouping ever came to power in South America and only two in the wider context of Latin America it's a pretty moot point. A number of the current crop of socially progressive governments in South America, do feature former marxists as cabinet ministers, chiefs of staff or party political functionaries, they've mostly moderated their views.

If it comes to it I can't think of many occasions where gulags have been instituted in Africa, save for Britain's example in colonial Kenya.

In South America's most developed economies there is a history of large sections of the left, including the industrial left being co-opted by populist dictators, Vargas and Peron come to mind. Neither were able to formulate or advance long term or broad answers to the fundamental issues of inequality that confronted them. Nor was it really in their interests to do so.

The essential issues of land reform and wealth redistribution would have confronted these countries, whether Lenin, Marx or Engels had existed or not. The tenacity and violent means exercised by the latifundistas to maintain their monopoly on power would likely have precipitated some form of militant struggle anyway, whether it's driving aims were Marxist, socialist or social democrat.

What if RC had won the Cola Wars?

The "war in heaven": if Lucifer had won, think how much more ordered existence would be!…

America had decided not to back the Cuban mafia and accepted Castro's offers of friendship after the revolution

No base for Russian missiles means no horrible days of waiting in the 60s, perhaps no Kennedy assassination and who knows what else after that

If Gargamel had beaten Papa Smurf?

If Gargamel had beaten Papa Smurf?

Or if Gilligan did not survive the storm and make it to the island?

Even if Beta beat VHS, we still would have DVD. War solves nothing!

"Given that no avowedly Marxist grouping ever came to power in South America…" Apart from Allende?

Its the starting them that tends to be the problem

How do we know that someone did not go back and make the timeline what it is as we have it now. Maybe all these changes were made because the other outcome was bad.

I am making my head hurt thinking about this.

Inquisitor Thaken:
The Cold War.
Tovarich Robertson.