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"Advice for 20-28mm Moderns Mfgs." Topic


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MajerBlundor30 Sep 2009 6:06 a.m. PST

Have revisited my modern skirmish product and took another look at various offerings in 20-28mm scale. If you manufacture moderns in these sizes here are some suggestions. I hope you find them helpful and take them in the spirit intended: suggestions by a prospective customer intended to help you separate me from my money!!! :-)

Note: These probably apply to 15s too but since gamers buying larger figures are probably focused on 1:1 gaming these comments are really focused on the larger figures.

1. COMPLETE SQUAD AND PLATOON LEVEL EQUIPMENT
Since gamers who buy larger scale moderns are probably focused on 1:1 skirmish gaming the force level is likely squad up to platoon. You might also have attachments from company and battalion level but squad and platoon are certainly your baseline.

I think it's important to provide a complete line of squad and platoon-level weapons for mainstream line troops as your starting point. This means assault rifles (some with grenade launchers), SAWs, GPMGs, and light AT weapons such as AT-4s, RPGs, and SMAWs as a complete, minimum baseline.

From there consider adding snipers and SMGs for SpecOp gaming and heavier AT weapons such as the Javelin for combined arms gaming.

Light mortars such as 60mm mortars do appear at company level but are less useful.

At the moment Liberation Miniatures seems to have the most complete line available.


2. UNIT PACKAGING
A lot of Mfgs. already sell their figures in small packs of 2-4 figures anyway. But often the contents of the package make it difficult to build fireteams, squads, and platoons without lots of extra figures.

Since modern TO&Es are readily available consider selling figures in pre-packaged units such as complete teams. These could include platoon command teams (PC, Senior NCO, Radio Operator), fireteams, GPMG teams, AT teams, etc.

Your customers will love you for it and you'll remove a barrier to ordering for them: when they hop on your site they can quickly order what they need based on TO&E instead of backing out and trying to calculate the optimum order configuration.


3. COMPLETE AND ACCURATE PACKAGE DESCRIPTIONS
While I was trying to figure out what to order from one site I couldn't tell what was actually in a package.

For example, one mfg. cryptically lists a pack as 2 figures with SMAW. Since an AT team often has a gunner and assistant gunner does that mean 1x SMAW and 1x a-gunner? Or two figures both having a SMAW? The listing specifically used the singular when referencing SMAW but I suspect it's actually two SMAWs.

Some goes for their GPMG listing of a pack with 3x figures. Gunner, a-gunner, and ammo-bearer? Or three GPMGs? Can't tell from the listing.


4. PHOTOS, PHOTOS, PHOTOS!
Which brings us to photos. This applies to all miniatures mfgs. but for skirmish gaming this is really important.

Going back to the mfg. referenced above their site lacks photos and the listings don't describe model stance! So, you could end up with some figures in a squad casually walking along while the rest are firing away.

We gamers simply want to know what we're buying. Not just to judge quality or sculpting style but also so we can plan our units. For moderns some gamers prefer firing lines, others running/advancing figures, etc. In any case we like our complete units to make sense visually!


5. FIGURE POSES
Which brings us to figure poses. Having a bunch of rifleman in combat action poses while the machine gunner figure looks like he's walking up to the practice range firing line to qualify isn't a good idea.

Smaller companies can't afford to sculpt a lot of different poses and even larger ones need to pace their production schedule. So when planning a line make sure the figure poses make sense and look good together. Don't have all of your leader figures running flat out if all of the other figures are firing. And if most of the figures are firing make sure AT and MG figures are firing too instead of just walking around.

And since so many gamers buying 20-28mm figures are probably focused on small unit actions the most common combat action poses are probably the most helpful. These would include firing, crouching/scanning for targets, reloading, carefully stalking forward (not merely advancing), shouting/pointing, etc. All of these would look good together while providing variety.

Running is probably the next most useful pose while walking along in plain sight probably isn't useful pose combat! :-)


CONCLUSION
I hope these suggestions prove helpful in that, if adopted, they increase your sales by giving other gamers what they want and as conveniently as possible. I'm certain that a lot of companies get tired of complaints without any ideas for solutions.

Well, instead of just complaining I decided to take the time to think about my recent effort to "grow the hobby" by spending more money on 20-28mm figures. I'd love nothing more than to jump on a website, see exactly what I'm buying, and be able to buy a complete platoon-level TO&E from one supplier as conveniently as possible.

MB

PS Based on my research Liberation Miniatures seems to come out on top for completeness of product line. The packaging is inconvenient, the descriptions are incomplete, and they lack photos, but I'll probably try to muddle through with an order anyway.

I would have ordered the other night and actually filled my cart with a couple of Liberation Miniatures platoons. But it was late and I wasn't quite certain that my order was accurate due to the issues above. Will probably take another crack at it over the weekend.

Wargamer Blue30 Sep 2009 6:15 a.m. PST

I feel your pain.

Big P from GMG30 Sep 2009 6:16 a.m. PST

What you really need is a photo catalogue of the Liberation range…

You may just have called your topic 'Advice for Liberation'. ;-)

Just wonder, how do you know your suggestions will increase sales? How will the extra time taken to fulfil your suggestions impact on profits for the small company?

Given the time Liberation has been in business and how successful he is, I doubt he will change the way he does things anytime soon…

Nick Nascati30 Sep 2009 6:16 a.m. PST

From my experience, the packs offered by TAG in 28mm seem to be a good balance, ie a pack seems to work as a proper fireteam for most nationalities. In 20mm Britannia solves the problem by offering their regular forces as single figures. Personally, I think that is the best way to go. Britannia's poses seem to be the best, though the sculpting style is not to everyone's taste. I have found many of the Liberation figures to be stiff and a bit odd in some cases. TAGs poses seem to be reasonable, though somewhat relaxed.

MajerBlundor30 Sep 2009 6:22 a.m. PST

You may just have called your topic 'Advice for Liberation'. ;-)

Actually, the only problems I had with LM are their catalog and, as Nick mentions, their "stiff" poses.

The majority of my comments are aimed at other Mfgs that I looked at. I'm just trying to be polite in calling out companies by name. Since I'll probably order from LM/Syr Hobbies I don't mind mentioning them since, in spite of the catalog issues, I think I could recommend to the to other gamers.

But the others I looked at made some really odd decisions about their product ranges even though their figures were beautiful (e.g. TAG miniatures look beautiful imo!)

MB

Nick Nascati30 Sep 2009 6:39 a.m. PST

MB,
Allow me to do some shameless advertising. I am selling my collection of 20mm Britannia figures for Afghanistan, British and Afghans. Already painted, you can jump right in!
Email me if you are at all interested.

Nick
nnascati@yahoo.com

Big P from GMG30 Sep 2009 7:15 a.m. PST

Well MB, you could take a look at the 'Liberation Living Catalogue' over on my forum…

guildwargamers.com

MajerBlundor30 Sep 2009 7:29 a.m. PST

Wow!!! You guys do some great work!!! Thank you!

Here's a direct link for others interested in LM:

link


Some nice photos of Americans and French soldiers:

link

Noticed one interesting thing about the figures: many seem to be looking "up". Might be odd in open country but perfect for urban ops and the Afghan mountains!!!

MB

MajerBlundor30 Sep 2009 7:34 a.m. PST

Off to a meeting but just glanced at a bunch of your images.

You've sold me Big P. Syr Hobbs/LM owe you a commission!

:-)

There are figures out there with cleaner lines (eg TAG) but Liberation's product line is so darn comprehensive.

MB

Big P from GMG30 Sep 2009 7:40 a.m. PST

No worries MB… Loads of stuff for Moderns gaming on the forum.

For those interested, you have to be a member of the forum to view the living catalogue.

glenbrooks30 Sep 2009 8:01 a.m. PST

Hi MB. would love to know what you think of mine?????
brooksminiatures.co.uk
thanks glen. p.s you can email me off board if you wish

Nick Nascati30 Sep 2009 8:04 a.m. PST

Glen,
Sort of off topic. I have often noticed and wondered, why sculptors seem to always show SAS with trousers over their boots, while the regular squadies have them tucked in. Is there some reason why they are done differently?

glenbrooks30 Sep 2009 9:19 a.m. PST

Hi Nick, main reason is that most sculptors do not have very good referance for SAS, so they make it up,most people think they do not wear helmets or body armour etc, so its open to what they belive a trooper would wear. also in the army we chop and change our kit all the time, so both could be right.same for webbing ,

Nick Nascati30 Sep 2009 9:47 a.m. PST

Glen,
Thanks. I thought you'd be the one to ask.

GeoffQRF30 Sep 2009 11:02 a.m. PST

Problem is, the image of special forces is that they have a distinctly different look, whereas I suspect the reality is that they are actually not that easy to visually identify from your normal squaddie, with the possible exception of a wider choice of weapons/equipment. If you are special forces, I would think the last thing you want is to stand out as 'different'

GARY SEVEN JNR30 Sep 2009 2:52 p.m. PST

majer B -- I relate to your points which apply to many companies .. however on point 2 … gamers use so many different rulesets aimed at battalion , company , paltoon level etc … I,m not even sure you could say 1;1 scale was the most popular .

I remember when FAA had this problem and used to do the 3 figure packs . They then had a rethink and opted for the 10 figure packs – simply as it made more economic sense .. faster packing times , less space taken up at shows , a faster sale etc …

GARY SEVEN JNR30 Sep 2009 2:55 p.m. PST

majer b ..

heres another link for you ..

link

Nic Robson30 Sep 2009 8:03 p.m. PST

Majer,I think we meet all your qualifications – have you checked here link
and here link
Nic Eureka Miniatures

dwight shrute01 Oct 2009 8:59 a.m. PST

Mjr B did u put these questions to the traders u mention in your post ???

MajerBlundor01 Oct 2009 9:43 a.m. PST

@Dwight:

Actually my comments were driven by their existing web sites and my experience trying to use those sites to plan my project.

So I looked at lots of different companies and each has advantages and disadvantages. Some have VERY complete lines but no photos and weird packaging while others have every figure photographed but large holes in their product lines or incomplete lines. Some have beautiful figures in reasonable poses with clean lines while others have rather bland figures with "interesting" or inconsistent anatomies.

The point of my post wasn't to praise or damn a given company. I don't think that would be fair. It's strictly intended to provide feedback based on my aggregate experience across many different companies.

For those who have kindly provided links to their products:

@GlenBrooks:
Truly high quality miniatures! My favorite pose for skirmish gaming is "aiming-in" and you have a lot of those. And you have actual photos! Other companies could learn from your example. :-) I would only recommend that your infantry listings describe the weapons included to save the customer clicking back and forth (your BRIT-13 description is PERFECT!!!)

@Nic:
Beautiful figures! Remind me of Perry twins a bit. I love the "stalking" poses. Nice feel of movement and animation perfect for modern combat.

Your marine squad packaging is PERFECT! Four fireteams plus a squad leader. To me such packaging is a no brainer. I don't understand why others don't do that or at least provide individual figures like Brittania.

MB

Big P from GMG01 Oct 2009 10:21 a.m. PST

MB

If you join The Guild, in the members area is an actual Living Catalogue detailing many of the Liberation range with pics and pack codes.

RE: Brooks Miniatures

I have some, and they are the best 28mm Modern British I have seen. Stunning models.

shaun from s and s models01 Oct 2009 10:48 a.m. PST

reading through this thread it is very apparent that as miniature companies we would all like to be like you wanted us to be, but its never going to happen.
some companies will be web based and not have very good pics or non at all, whilst others have lots of pics and strange packaging and or poses.
i think the answer is and always will be to go to the companies that you trust, i think all of us take note and notice of comments and criticisms like yours, but some are not able to do anything about it.
maybe you could try it yourself and commision a range of figures and then try to promote them.
it can be very frustrating and rewarding at the same time.

MajerBlundor01 Oct 2009 12:23 p.m. PST

reading through this thread it is very apparent that as miniature companies we would all like to be like you wanted us to be, but its never going to happen.

I think for some companies that's true simply due to resources and time available.

But if children and grandmothers can manage to post photographs as frequently as they do, then surely those with a vested financial interest can try harder (heck, some of those kids and grandmas probably share too much! yikes!!!)

:-)

There's probably a certain amount of inertia too. "The site is up, the descriptions done, I have better things to do." Perfectly understandable given that so many wargame company owners have day jobs too.

However, companies such as GW and BattleFront have built thriving businesses employing lots of people by focusing on their customers.

It's often said that since so many wargame companies are part time "cottage industries" we can't really expect too much from them. Ok, fine. But they too must then lower their sales expectations if they don't meet their customer's needs. Unfortunately THAT becomes a self-reinforcing loop.

That's sort of why I posted this feedback. If one small company can improve their sales and build a thriving business by making it easier and more attractive for gamers to buy their stuff I would be very happy.

Ideal: one of these companies, over some period of time, makes the effort to tweak their sales process by editing a description here, adding a photo there, re-packing a product line at a time. And at some point in a year or so a gamer can hop on their site and conveniently/rapidly purchase 6x Fireteams, 1x Command Team, 3x GPMG Teams, and 1x NCO Pack after seeing their wonderful photos.

MB

Knockman01 Oct 2009 4:09 p.m. PST

Strong recommendation from me for Glen Brooks's miniatures – excellent service, and valuable supporting info on the website.

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