"Why no Pacific War for FoW?" Topic

All right I know this will be blindingly obvious to most of you. But I've always wondered why Battlefront seems to have ignored so many theaters of WW2. and reading Bi''ls threads on FoW it struck me. All the money is in German tanks and the stuff that fights them.

Was there a single armor battle in the PTO? And no, I don't mean some time three tanks shot at two others somewhere…so no tanks to sell there, right?

That for most battle involving the US at least 75% of any Japanese army would have to be pill boxes, bunkers and spider holes.

But the ETO puts you in a position to sell a lot of tanks. $$$$

I'm not aware of any massed tank battles, but the Japanese did produce a number of light tanks, which might make things interesting for the American troops.

Human wave attacks, and/or primitive weapon attacks against American armor could be as well.

The Marines and Army will need a lot of landing craft, and LVT's for their ops.

No doubt, bunkers could be sold in large numbers too, if reasonably priced, but it is basically an infantry game in many cases.

Another reason for buying from the Command Decision range, and selecting a different set of rules, I guess. They produce most of the tanks, LVT's, and infantry needed for Pacific Theater battles.

I have participated in a couple of "landings", on both sides, and can say that amphibious assaults are rather fun to game, and look spectacular on the game table.

a position to sell a lot of tanks

'Nuf sed

Don't worry – EVERYONE will have PTO when the new Band of Brothers comes out next year! :-)

I'm actually surprised, too, that nobody that I'm aware of hasn't jumped on this large open niche. Seems like a FoW/Warhammer-esque rule set backed by a line of Japanese & US forces would sell very well.

Is there something out that I'm just not aware of?

Not just US, Australians in Borneo, British, Indians, \nepalese, East Africans and West Africans in Burma, its huge, and just think of the money in sellinh jungles…

As far as tank battles go, there was no Pacific Kursk. But you have Peleliu, Saipan and the Philippines against the Americans. There were large tank battles against the Russians in China and smaller ones in SE Asia.

As for BF getting into the Pacific Conflict…….meh. As a long time member of the FOW Pacific Yahoo group, I don't think BF could come up with lists anywhere near as good as the ones developed at this group. (One day when I get my act together I will do the IJF and IJA paratrooper lists.)

YMMV

Check out:

link

Ralph

They are developing whole island terrain bits to sell…an offset against the lack of expensive multi- mark tanks, missing from the PTO

That way legit tournament play will require said island terrain to be sanctionable..

It comes down to interest, and hence sales. EC has a bit of the problem laid out but the simple fact is that the Pacific has never been as popular a Theater as the "main Show" in Europe, Africa, and Russia. I'm not saying it was any less important to the war, just that it isn't as focused upon by most people.

I have a huge collection of 28mm Pacific War stuff and I love gaming it. But I have yet to meet a gamer in my area that has any Marine, Japanese, British, or Australian stuff to run in these games besides me.

I completely agree (and fervently hope) that the coming Pacific series on HBO could change all this…

"They are developing whole island terrain bits to sell…an offset against the lack of expensive multi- mark tanks, missing from the PTO

That way legit tournament play will require said island terrain to be sanctionable.."

But they don't require that you use BF models in their tournaments and never have-- why would you think they would require people to use their scenery? Ridiculous rumor mongering!

No Tigers, Panthers or peadot, no wunderwaffen, no bionic Germans and no (or very, very few) airborne troops.

I love the PTO. S'great.

I'll go against the grain and say that it's a totally different war, requiring rather different rules.

And if you have to choose between the european theatre and the pacific – well, I certainly know what'd be more popular.

They haven't even had time to do the early european war yet, which is much more similar to what they started with.

I have nothing against the PTO, but please gentlemen, let them get the EW out first. Please don't distract them at this critical moment for the future of BF sponsored gaming.

Lots of tanks in Burma :)

You could sell alot of trees though…."Offical" Jungle Terrain

I haven't seen Battlefront refer to anything as an official miniature yet but over here I see it plenty.

"Lots of tanks in Burma :)"

Well some, and even the odd tank battle too, but it doesn't quite have the same sweeping grandeur as Operation Crusader or the Lvov-Sandomierz operation.

"I haven't seen Battlefront refer to anything as an official miniature yet but over here I see it plenty."

Where's "over here", and who is saying that? If not BF then why does it matter?

Don't worry – EVERYONE will have PTO when the new Band of Brothers comes out next year! :-)

That's exactly what I am thinking.
In fact I commented on this on a thread about "The Pacific" a week or so ago.

If Battlefront can't see this as a golden marketing opportunity, then they are not as smart as they think they are.
Instead of needlessly re-writing their MidWar books, and putting out fantasy scifi tanks, here is a whole new theatre to wallow in, and rake in the money. Dumb, I say.

*************
EDIT: And in my above post, I seem to be violating my own dictum about manufacturers dumb enough to take gamers' advice!

As for EC's first post, there is a "what if" tank vs tank scenario in the 1942 Luzon campaign. Beware the mighty Stuart!

However, you CAN field a nice variety of amphibious little things and do weird things behind the lines along the beach. There's a lot of possibilities on Guadalcanal, where it's actually a "fair" and even fight.

I can't seem to find their official PDF for Japanese & American forces in the Pacific.

I was amusing….. I recall the US force list being a B-29 (plus payload)

"In fact I commented on this on a thread about "The Pacific" a week or so ago."

Which of the weekly "FOW Pacific" threads was that?

Actually, it was one of the ones about the Band of Brothers HBO PAcific.

The Japanese launched an night assault against one of the beaches on Guam that included 20 or 30 tanks. Of course something like 75 to 80% were knocked out by the next morning.

jdg

Ah, yes: wasn't that the one where it was pointed out that there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from playing Flames of War in the Pcific NOW?

You want tanks in the Pacific? Lots of tanks? Whole loads of tanks? Refight Khalkyn Gol, or later on, the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation. The latter did more to convince the Japanese to quit than a couple of American bombs did.

Allen

The Pacific war couldnt have been won without tanks. Armor support was required. Every Marine Division had an armored battalion. Corps had extra armor battalions to support its divisions. Plenty of extra battalions of armor to help support the infantry in the army too.

I dont know where people get the idea that it was an infantry war. The war in Europe was an infantry war for that matter. Most divisions only had a single armor battalion. The Germans had hardly any armor by the end of the war and had to rely on kids and old men with antitank weapons to slow down the allies. But who wants to play a tournament game with kids and old men.

I game the PTO in 28mm and my marines have armor support. Corkscrew tactics work much better with some armor support.

Well ours will be releasing later this year.

link

NUTS! is the core rule set. Any new rules that are in WAJ will apply to the theater. As it really was different than fighting in Europe there will be loads of theater specific rules, scenarios, and lists.
Hope this helps,
Ed

umm thye do plan to do PTO… in pipeline after Early War.

"I dont know where people get the idea that it was an infantry war. "

I don't think that's what anybody said-- there weren't a lot of tank on tank battles was the point. When there were they were over quickly and it was no contest for the US at all (as on Pelelieu). Though in all the reading I have done many of the Shermans and Stuarts coming ashore in a lot of the battles never really got very far. They were either knocked out by coastal guns, or more often sank into underwater shell holes, flooded, and shorted out the tank's electrical systems.

The Sherman…King Tiger of the PTO.

There's not a lot of tank on tank. The US never deployed full armor divisions and the Japanese had 1 (out of four) deployed in the Philippines.

Have you see the picture of the Sherman with a Te-Ke strapped on the rear deck?

The PTO really is a niche market. Look at all the 'big' rules over the past few decades. Did they cater to the PTO? If you were lucky, the PTO got addresses AFTER the major ETO and Western Desert campaigns were pushed. When were the Japanese added to Squad Leader (or ASL)? Are there Japanese lists for Spearhead?

Exactly, G!

As far as tank battles go, there was no Pacific Kursk.

Depends on how you define "Pacific".
link

nobody that I'm aware of hasn't jumped on this large open niche.

In figure lines or in rules? BFE World At War has a Pacific book and a Chinese add-on PDF.

As far as marketing goes there wouldn't be all the tank sales, but that would be off set by selling loads of landing craft and LVTs and new carrier based planes.

And as far as tournament games go why not field a Japanese armoured company? Couldn't be any worse than the Italian armour and they do OK in the tournaments last I heard.

FOW is played at company and ocassionally at battalion level. During the later island offensives the ratio of armoured vehicles to troops on the ground was actually higher than the ETO. So while there were no Kursks in the pacific at the level of the game armour would be well represented. Alan

Only on one side, though!

There are numerous examples of both the Allies and the Japanese achieving decisive masses of armour in battles, but it almost never happened simultaneously on both sides. One side would have tanks, while the other would not. Tank v tank engagements were incredibly rare.

Newsflash: link

Quote:
Q: Pacific War?
A: Absolutely, this is a huge project and will take up considerable R&D time. We are constantly thinking about it but I feel it is safe to say no major production work will occur until we are well into Early War.

And in the next paragrah:
Q: Early War, what's the plan?

A: As JP has previously mentioned work is underway, and we are aiming to release the three primary sourcebooks over the next 4 years. The first book will focus on the German invasion of Poland and France. The second book will cover the Africa campaign. The third book will cover the war in the east.

So the answer is "FOW Pacific will probably arrive in 2-3 years".

>>> So the answer is "FOW Pacific will probably arrive in 2-3 years".

As Early War was at one time confidently stated to appear in 2006, I would not hold my breath.

Allen

There's perhaps the point that should be amde which is that outside the USA, the Pacific is perhaps not a very popular theatre to play.

The campaigns in the Far East (unfairly) aren't remembered in the UK as much as the operations in the ETO. There were, after all, not about national survival for us.

Given the company is from New Zealand, and I believe Kiwi operations were limited in the Pacific War, perhaps it's logical they concentrated on the bits of the war that most itnerested the designers?

Everyone will do it? But I don't want to do the Far East. Wil stuff just turn up on my doorstep along with threats I should paint it?

Well it looks like FOW is taking another thing from GW.

That being take forever to release anything.

The real reason is that they can't sell to tanks like they can for ETO.

I think, as has been pointed out, that the demand far outstrips the production capacity. The internet, and bitchin' and moanin' on it are instantaneous. Making a new rules set, miniatures and SKU's that need to be stocked by retailers isn't.

Give 'em time, it will happen at some point.

I think, as has been pointed out, that the demand far outstrips the production capacity. Making a new rules set, miniatures and SKU's that need to be stocked by retailers isn't.

But they found capacity to produce Mid-War Monsters (rules, miniatures and SKUs) a decision that caused a lot of fuss.

Give 'em time, it will happen at some point.

But don't hold your breath.

I agree with you there Derek, MWM was an abomination.

Look on ebay I got some excellent FOW pacific force books … :)

"MWM was an abomination"

As a major drain on their resources, I would agree. All it did was put a bunch of prototypes and drawing-table thoughts into stores, where they sit. The people who think of FoW as a proper historical game are fussily outraged by the "fantasy", while those who were already likely to dismiss FoW as tournament-drivel "history" used the MWM to feel more justified in their opinion.

However.

For the Wierd War II folks, it was a wonderful opportunity. I've suggested to one local store that they get a few of DP9's Gear Krieg walkers in to hang next to the MWM stuff, just to put it all in proper perspective. Gear Krieg (and soon BFE World At War, as Agis gets there) actually have stats for a couple of the MWMs, and the FoW website is thoughtfully providing statistics in real-world terms, so those of us who want to use them for something else don't have to buy the book of useless FoW stats to convert them.

Speaking of drain on resources, why are they releasing Vietnam models and rules while there is still so much clamour for Early War and PTO? I realize it is not a full blown expansion (maybe it will be?) and the Huey gunships look cool, but I have no desire to game the Vietnam war, I am a WWII buff. First the MWM and now 'Nam, while everyone is screaming for EW and PTO. I smell a conspiracy theory coming on…

Conspiracy to do what? I for one think anything that BF does to advance their game closer to modern FOW is a good thing.

Never played the game, not interested, but, am I missing something here?
you have the rules for infantry, armoUr, bunkers, the D-Day supplement for beach assaults, I'm sure the kit is all available by someone. Can't you just get busy and do it anyway, why do you need to be spoonfed it all, read some books and have at it!

John

By John 54 wrote:

Can't you just get busy and do it anyway, why do you need to be spoonfed it all, read some books and have at it!

FoW players seem to need a huge amount of spoonfeeding.

Just about everything anyone needs to play FoW in the Pacific is out there.

But many FoW fans seem to be incapable of playing anything without official sanction. They won't even use other companies' models never mind readily available, but unofficial, rules.

They will probably be waiting a long time. And they will moan a lot while they are doing it.

It's pathetic really.