"Baden Artillery in 1809" Topic

according to various sources Baden had a battery of
two 7 pdrs howitzers at Talavera……..other sources
give eight 6 pdrs…………does anyone have any idea
as to the exact pieces they had??

regards

Ged
gjm.figurines.co.uk/

Using a bit of deduction, I suggest it reasonable that the Baden battery had 6x6 pdrs and 2x7 p. howitzers.

Organized along French lines, Gill lists the Baden foot batteries consisting of 6x6 pdrs and 2x7 p. howitzers stating that one of the foot batteries was in Spain. Bowden and Tarbox, likewise, list the Baden foot batteries as having this same composition.

Confusing the issue, may be Field's "Talavera" listing 8x6 pdrs. Perhaps, Field found a source showing 8 guns and assumed all were 6 pdrs?

Which of your sources show only two howitzers on the field and do they mention what became of the 6x6 pdrs?

Jon

hi Jon
there are about six sources i can find none of which agree
totally with each other
right
Stephen Millar in his excellent article on the napoleon
series board gives the 2 7pdr howitzers.but does go on
to say "other" sources say Steinmetz s battery was composed
of eight 6-pdrs (year eleven)
Robert Burnham article notes the discrepancies and confusion
about the battery size/composition.he feels there should be
8 six pounders.
Rawkins claims it was a composite battery half each from
the horse and foot batteries giving four 12 pounders
and 4 six pounders….this last opinion has to be wrong!!

Gill states it was the 3rd foot battery.

Omans view is interesting in volume 2 of "a history of the
peninsular war page 536.note1 he catergorically staes 17
guns were "lost" by levals division
charles stewart reports to Wrllington that 4 eight pounders 4 six pounders 1 four pounder and 1 six-inch howitzer taken by A Cambells Brigade . with 1 six inch howitzer and 6 "other" guns left by the french in the woods
the spanish cavalry (rey) i think took 4 pieces and brought
them back to the great redoubt.
so 13 to the british and 4 to the spaniards.all were handed
over to the spanish. Sebastini and Sernarmont hid the truth
from Napoleon

ironically 15 guns were recaptured from Cuestas army on sept 27. according to Sernamont he "found 2 of the missing
guns on the field of battle abandoned". this ramble gives
you an idea of the calibres involved but only adds to the
mystery

i would go with you Jon as the Badeners were directly
opposite the redoubt and received the heaviest fire
loosing all their artillery pieces "for a while!!!)

Strangly the whole German division only lost 1007
casualities of which 103 were killed the rest wounded
(77 prisoners) giving average casuality rate of 143.85
per battalion ( 7 of them) div total 4537 at the total
of the battle…..a bit of a digression there but it
amounts tomore questions then answers

what do you think

regards
Ged

gjm.figurines.co.uk/

Dear Ged
I have read many of these. None quite work for me.

It is easier to move men than guns and equipment therefore the logic runs that the Baden gunners marched to the borders without their guns and equipment and were re-equiped. Now that means that it came from French Arsenals. Now the next question is which one.

Now which system of guns would they be equiped with. Could they have received Gribeauval [probably Spanish] and this would likely be 4-pdrs. The Gribeauval 12-pdr was not used on campaign. The howitzer would be the Gribeauval 6.4in Howitzer [if Spanish] or the M1795 6.4in Long Porte [if French].

The indication of 6-pdrs would suggest the AnXI system so the howitzer would be the AnXI 24-pdr howitzer. This was also known as the 5.5pouce, 5.72pouce and the 5.9in. Now as far as I know it was never referred to as the 7-pdr howitzer by the French. This was a German definition.

The most commonly used 7-pdr howitzer was the Austrian 7-pdr howitzer. This had the same calibre as the AnXI 24-pdr howizter of 150mm. Now Spain is a long way from Austria. Most captured kit stayed in area.

You can work out the size of battery from the number of gunners and the drivers.

Comments upon uniforms. The Baden troops marched to Spain in their uniforms. Any replacement uniforms would have to come from Spanish stores and from France. Hence the slow change to shako. I would suggest that the new drafts wore shako. There was not a definite change. The pride of the Baden veterans would attempt to keep their identity.

I am sure I read somewhere that the kasket plates were removed and affixed to shako when the kaskets could not be used anymore. I would suggest the problem with leather is shrinkage and cracking. Also te kasket would be hotter than a shako.

Much to consider and I wish you well upon your quest.

Stephen

Dear Gerard
Johnson (1984) Napoleonic Armies, A Wargamer Campaign directory, RAFM.

This is a good introduction but as it was written in 1978 is creeking.

pg 63 "Baden was required to send a regiment and a battery of 8 guns to Spain. …. The battery weas rearmed with 4-pdr at the Spanish Frontier."

This may be where some of the confusion appears as sources agree that they were re-equiped. Well I would say that they never left Baden with guns but arrived in Southern France and were re-equiped. There are many instances of this as shown in DDS (2007) and (2008) French Artillery to 1824.

All gun batteries of 8 guns were very rare especially in the French-Allied forces. Only the Austrians at times field 8x 6-pdrs. There would be 2 howitzers. If it was re-equiped then there are two options.

6x6-pdrs + 2 howitzers
6x4-pdrs + 2 howitzers

Now I think the former most likely therefore using AnXI 6-pdrs guns and AnXI 24-pdrs. This confounds the statement made by a number of historians that the French did not use AnXI in the Peninsular.

Stephen

Of possible interest:

"Operations des troupes allemandes en Espagne de 1808 a 1813" by (Paul) Emil Costa de Serda (1832-1881) found in "Le Spectateur militaire", 3e series, 48e annee:

Vol 30 (janvier, fevrier, mars 1873):

Fevrier: pp 184-213:
link

Mars: pp 321-356:
link

Vol 31 (avril, mai, juin 1873):

Avril: pp 5-36 :
link

Mai: pp 161-195:
link

Also published as an extract: Paris : J. Dumaine, 1874.

thanks Big AlL……..YMC

Stephen

or should i say dear Mr Watson…well deduced old chap

i agree with you the battery was french year eleven

"picked up en route to espana"……..as you say

the number of gunners denotes the battery size as

in pieces used.

may have to partially disagee with you regading kasket

replacement i believe they wore these at Talaevera

the drummers of the regiment picked up tarleton helmets

from dead 23rd bitish light dragoons after their hell for

leather charge……..to be keeping with their comrades

so the answer is they must have still had em. they

of the tightness due to heat………it was 100 degrees

at Talavera………again another pointer to Kaskets

being worn.

i agree with you on the pride front so whrn shakos were

eventually brought in the oval rombic plates were removed

and placed on new shakos

appreciate your input

regards

Ged

gjm figurines.co.uk/

The "Auszug aus der Geschichte des 1. Badischen Feld-Artillerie-Regiments Nr.14 und seines Stammtruppentheils" (Karlsruhe, 1886) states the following:

Page 12 – The 3rd company of the Baden artillery battalion was sent to Spain with six 6-lber cannon and two 7-lber howitzers.

Page 13 – Four pieces were detached (to Ney's corps) which rejoined the unit by the time the unit was in Madrid (end of 1808).

Page 14 – While cannon were detached at other times, they had returned for participation in the Battle of Medellin (27 & 28 March 1808).

The battery fired considerable ammunition during its two-hour action at that battle (510 cannon and 75 canister rounds).

This was nearly the entire supply for their 6-lbers, so they (the 6-lbers) were passed on to the garrison of Truxillo.

Page 15 – The battery received Spanish 8-lbers in exchange as considerable ammunition was available for them (and the howitzers).

There is some discussion about the battle of Talavera itself.

Page 16 – In the end, the battery lost one howitzer and one cannon in the battle.

They do not add any further specifics as to the pieces. – R

Dear Gerard
The Kasket would be kept as long as possible. Alas it was expensive to produce. The new drafts would have had shako so you have over a period of time a transition in headwear. At Talavera, the Baden troops would have been in Kasket. It is by 1810-11 that they would be increasingly shako.

Stephen

Stephen

sounds about right.well done that man!!

regards

Gerard

Ralpher

wow………..you have the "holy grail" of Baden artillery
movements at your finger tips. thanks very much for that
is there any chance you could kindly contact me directly

gjm.figurines@btinternet.com as i would love to get
a copy of this book .or photocopies of the relevant pages
any assistance would be appreciated

reagards

Ged

gjm.figurines.co.uk/

This is TMP at its best – real experts making good sources known to the rest of us.

I'm no expert but it does sound very reasonable that they marched to the theatre of operations and picked up guns/wagons etc once they arrived.

Footslogger
yep ..its fascinating stuff .the Baden troops not only
marched thier boots off they fought with an unparalled vigor
and were seen by the french as the best fighters in the
confederation

a snippet for you from the pen of Colonel Von Porbeck
commander of the 4th combined regiment ( present
at Talavera)….this bit from a punch up with the
soaniards at the bridge at Almaraz

"While our men are advancing with their bayonets and
during the hand to hand fighting,which scarcely lasted the
lenght of the lords prayer,the french sappers on the other
side of the river shouted their roaring vivat across to
us:we ran onto the bridge,set about demolishing the
barricade from both sides,and the brothers in arms
embraced one another jubilantly"

stirring stuff eh??

regards
Ged

gjm.figurines.co.uk/
during

Dear Ralpher
Thank you for that as it starts to make things a little clearer.

1808 – 3rd coy Baden artillery bn sent to Spain
6x Bavarian M1800 6-pdr cannon and 2x Bavarian M1800 7-pdr howitzers.

Four pieces were detached (to Ney's corps) which rejoined the unit by the time the unit was in Madrid (end of 1808).
Medellin (27 & 28 March 1808) fired 510 cannon and 75 canister rounds so the 6-pdrs [being smaller calibre than AnXI 6-pdrs] were retired to garrison at Truxillo.

April 1808 The battery received Spanish 8-lbers in exchange as considerable ammunition was available for them (and the howitzers). [Baden 7-pdr howitzers were retained???]

At Talavera, the battery lost one howitzer and one cannon in the battle. So at Talavera there were 6x 8-pdr and 2x 7-pdr howizters [probably M1800 7-pdr howitzers]

Now that is a little better for me.

17 guns were "lost" by Levals Division out of 18 pieces
4 8-pdrs [1 from the Baden Battery and 3 from Dutch horse battery]
4 6-pdrs [all the guns from the 2nd Hessen-Darmstadt Foot Battery???]
1 4-pdr [Dutch horse battery???]
1 six-inch howitzer [the calibre was 150mm or 5.9in hence 6in.]

With 1 six inch howitzer and 6 "other" guns left by the french in the woods [this leaves 5x 8-pdr and 1x 7-pdr howitzer of the Baden Battery + one piece of the Dutch Horse Artillery]

The balance sheet is getting there.

Stephen

They kept the howitzers after Medellin as there was enough ammunition for them. – R

Dear Ralpher
Thanks for the confirmation. Alas I have not been able to download the reference you are using. Does it give the number of guns at Talavera?

Stephen

It does not give the number directly in actions (Battle X, number of pieces Y). The work gives the strength at the start of the campaign, then mentions changes and detachments. In part, this is why I made my post in the fashion I did (I thought the details interesting in their own right as well). – R

Dear Ralpher
Thank you for this. Great assistance.

Stephen