"Elting's Napoleonic Uniforms" Topic

The latest flier from Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller has both volumes on sale for $99.95.

edwardrhamilton.com

Doh! Must not be tempted. Must be strong….

This is a steal. Worth every penny at twice the price.

mjc

They are beautiful books and I have a complete set. However, they are by no means definitive in coverage or precision, so not essential.

Vol's I and II or III and IV?

Vol 1&2, for $99.95 USD is more than a steal, it is armed robbery with violence!!!

if you dont have these get them now…….

US delivery only.

These cover just the French, oui?

Some very nice titles on that site.
link
If your into painting and modeling this is a must have.

That's bad news for me, as I'm thinking about selling my 1st editions. So now I probably won't get what I put into them. Oh well.

I never found them that useful. All sorts of odds and sods for the French that are interesting (like band majors) but nothing I'll ever paint. And the lack of any sort of table of contents or index is maddening. Beautiful to look at, but that's about it.

Although I did once use them to paint up Murat and his ADC for a guy. Amaranth all over.

Thanks for this link. I have wanted the Etling books for a long time. Got a few more. Need to send check -- no online service, to save money. Ok

This is a must for all historical gamers
FROM ROCKS TO ROCKETS: Arms and Armies Throughout the Ages .
By William Gilkerson
$5 USD down from $15 USD

I've found them very useful myself, especially for drummers, generals and AdC's, and just to get a feel of the French army lack of uniformity.

Save your money, out of date obsolete information, typical of the 1950ties and 60ties.

Colonel Elting, who commissioned all of the Knotel watercolors personally and did some of the research himself, commented that Herbert Knotel used excellent source material for his uniform figures. If the research is well done, then the 'information' is not 'obsolete.' If there is a problem with any of the uniforms, Col Elting comments on that in the captions.

Interestingly, Rousselot did much of his work in the 1950s and 1960s and no one has commented that his work 'inforamtion' is 'obsolete.'

As an aside, I spent part of an evening in Col Elting's study going looking over the uniform collection with him. It is now the property of the West Point Museum with the exception of the larger group pictures of which there were about fifteen. Two of those are now in my collection thanks to the graciousness of Mrs. Elting.

Sincerely,
Kevin

I don't believe there are any notes on the Austrians in the second set of books. I believe that Col Elting didn't see problems with Knotel's work on the Austrians.

Sincerely,
K

Look for example at the Tirailleurs du Po or Tirailleurs Corses Knötel took as source a middle 19th century print which shows the Trialleur du Po in the Drummer uniform, he shows the drummer uniform for the soldiers, this is repeated throughout later works who copy Knötel or the orginal source.

Guy Dempsey Jr. did write a competent book about Napoleon's mercenaries where this questions amongst else is discussed – now that is a book well worth its money.

Then Knötel shows a colonel d'infanterie with red saddle cloth in 1805 – common research is agreeing on dark blue one.

There he did not list his sources, you cannot discuss this interesting topic

On plate 11 (infantry section) he shows a French grenadier of 1812 in the Bardin uniform – which came in use in 1813, moreover a loose musket sling, whereas the musket sling in the French Army had to be tight in the Napolonic wars.

If you like colours and the style of Herbert Knötels water colours, it is definatley a good buy, if you look for serious research, than no.

I think they are great books…firstly, simply as objects, they are beautiful books,…what would you rather own? some ghastly little pamphlet, downloaded from the net or these? They are relatively pricey but will hold their value, in ten years time you will still get a good price for them.
As for all the "out of date information yadda yadda" bores out there, do you ever use a single resource? Anyway, if you are that bothered about whether a musket sling should be loose or tight then God help you.

Christot
Interesting comment I guess your definition of close enough is not the same as others. Would you consider beautiful uniform prints showing the French infantry in long coats and bicorn but they are supposed to represent 1815 uniforms. Well I guess it is all a matter degrees the others where just pointing out that there where some details wrong but I imagine that all those above pointing out problems own a copy of the books.

"As for all the "out of date information yadda yadda" bores out there, do you ever use a single resource? Anyway, if you are that bothered about whether a musket sling should be loose or tight then God help you."

God help you if you cannot take criticism as constructive for those of us who would like to know what is correct based on the best information available.

And yes I own all four volumes but rarely use them as painting guides!

William

- Then Knötel shows a colonel d'infanterie with red saddle cloth in 1805 – common research is agreeing on dark blue one. -

And we can say with complete certitude that all Colonel d'infanterie had a blue saddle cloth? The French we're known for using regulations as guidelines at most, no? After all, variations and non-regulation uniforms seemed legions, especially in the early years of the Empire.

My impression form the Prussian plates in this series is that Herbert Knötel painted hastily and from (sometimes incorrect) memory.

One example, which I researchd some time ago: I was unable to find any sources confirming the plate in Elting's Napoleonic Uniforms, which pretends to show the "Reitende Batterie No. 18" (Prussian plate 47, p. 536), is representing historical facts.

In early 1815, batteries 18 & 19 (former [Russo-]German Legion) were reorganised to Prussian standards. The Russian 6pounder guns and 10pounder unicorns were kept. The ammunition boxes on the limbers were enlarged. The ammunition wagons were replaced by French ones. The old and used Russian harness was completely replaced by British harness. New uniforms were distributed following Prussian patterns (probably yellow shoulder-straps, as they both now belonged to the Silesian – 3rd artillery brigade), but the black leather belts were kept (as well as the Russian shakos I believe). All this was completed by the end of April 1815.

These two batteries had a "Park-Kolonne" of their own, with Russian ammunition: "Park-Kolonne No. 19" of 12 ammunition waggons.

Thus, what is definitely wrong for the horse battery no. 18 are the white leather belts. Instead, the black belts of Russian origin were kept. Strotha's work on horse artillery as well as his regimental history of the 3rd artillery brigade are definite on this.

I would have expected the shoulder straps to be yellow as well.

Therefore, defintely, the caption for this plate is wrong.

However, there was another horse battery which actually had Tarleton helmets: In April 1815, the half horse battery No. 13 of four guns, was augmented to a full horse battery, and according to Strotha its men received British uniforms of the horse artillery. So Knötel's image can't be horse battery no. 13 either, but mightbe he mixed up some of his notes.

On a parade in August 1815, even the officers of horse battery no. 13 appeared with British helmets, to the disgust of the Prussian king who ordered to take them off immediately (for the officers only).

As von Winterfeldt stated: Herbert Knötel does not state his sources, therefore his drawings are useless for serious research. On the other hand, he can't be blamed for this: his illustratios were not meant to be published and be used as a reference.

I am not a serious researcher of uniforms and have the books, and I find them a good source of information and inspiration for unusual subjects. At that price they are definately worth it!

I also like the Rousselot prints but alas do not have the funds to chase down the prints or purchase the compilation books.

hussarbob1746.webs.com

They are like any other collection on Napoleonic uniforms: Imperfect.
I can't think of a single general work that could claim to 100% definitive in it's accuracy. As such, these books are like any other, and should be used as such. I.e. in conjunction with other sources.
The price alone would put them outside of the re-mit of a casual purchaser. Anyone who buys these books is likely to already have a knowledge and existing library on the subject. Subsequently they should have the inteligence to cross-reference this picturesque work with other examples.
If an invidual can't then work out for himself that an 1815 infantryman shouldn'tbe wearing an 1807 coat then no amount of books is really going to help him.
This is another useful book, no more, but a far more attractive one than most others.

'As von Winterfeldt stated: Herbert Knötel does not state his sources, therefore his drawings are useless for serious research.'

Oliver,

And your source for this opinion is what? By this reasoning none of the Osprey's referred to on this forum can be used for 'serious' research, though I have seen Osprey's without bibliographies and footnotes being praised from time to time. Further, there is no hard and fast rule in writing and publishing to cite sourcing, though it sure helps depending on the subject.

I disagree completely with your opinion on this subject, and I seldom disagree with any of your postings on any forum. Both Herbert Knotel and his father had an international reputation as uniformologists and that reputation was established long before Herbert Knotel produced this series of watercolors.

There is an short essay at the end of Volume II (I think) that explains somewhat the sourcing for the watercolors which I believe should be believed at face value as nothing has been forthcoming to contradict it.

'On the other hand, he can't be blamed for this: his illustratios were not meant to be published and be used as a reference.'

Where did you find this information? The reason that Col Elting commissioned these watercolors was precisely for instruction when he taught military art at West Point. They were not merely for his private collection. Not only did he commission these watercolors from Knotel, but he contributed to them, doing the research for the particular unit involved. Some of the watercolors were commissioned to be straight from the regulations.

Gentlemen, is there any real disagreement over anything here? Does anyone disagree that these books are exemplars of watercolor art and marvelous presentations and a bargain at the remaindered price? Does anyone disagree that they are quite general and spotty surveys and not particularly reliable on detail and accuracy?

It seems to me that some are misreading statements about the information as aethetic judgments, and others misreading statements about artistic inspiration as endorsement of reference quality.

Oh hell, let's just fight…

Kevin,

opinions are opinions, no statements of facts. I don't want to impose my opinions on the mind of others (even if I were able to do so), but of course I am happy if others agree with my views. However, even between honest men, sometimes a divergence of opinion must be accepted.

For me (= this is my personal opinion) in history, scientific research is a method to find out "how things really were" (or can be resonably expected to have been in the light of the sources which have survived).

Therefore, for me, an important scientific rule is to differentiate clearly between what the sources say/show, and what is the interpretation of the scientist. Different people may differ in their interpretation of a source, but if we get to see only one interpretation and not the original, we are deprived of judging ourselves.

Reputation alone is no guarantee that the reputed one is always right and never commits errors. Maybe, he makes less errors than others. Still, I prefer to judge by myself, without having to believe in the results of whoever he is.

You are right to assume that I do not value much an Osprey (or any other book) without bibliography or any other method of mentioning where the info comes from. Quoting one's sources shows that the author is ready to have his judgements tested by the reader. Of course, a bibliography alone doesn't make a flawless book. The sources must be compared, valued, wrong info corrected and new errors avoided, and not every author is able to do this well.

Studying uniforms can have many aspects. A scientific approach is only one of them, even though the major one for me personally. Obviously, enjoying to study uniforms just because the illustrations are beautiful, or just wanting to know the colours in order to have one's troops ready for the next wargame, or any other approach, are equally "justified".

Thank you for correcting me about the purpose of these watercolours by Herbert Knötel. I had not been aware of this.

Oliver

Oliver, that's a very well composed statement that more than one of us is thinking…

(There is an Osprey on Prussian Regular Infantry I do value highly…)

Despite possible imperfections, these books are a MUST-HAVE for anyone interested in uniforms of the period.

I have all 4 volumes on my shelf, and I am tempted to purchase another set of Volume 1/2 for $99 USD

Stephen

The alternative books, better and more specatcular for the French Army

Rousselot plates

Napoleon's Mercenaries by G. Dempsey jr.
Napoleon's Soldiers, by G. Dempsey jr.
Napoleon's Army 1807 – 1814 by G. Dempsey jr.

Le Bourgeois de Hambourg, Tradition Hors Series Nr.5
Le Manuscrit de Weiland, Hors Series, Nr. 4
Manuscrit de Berka, Manuscrit de Brunswick, Manuscrit de Zimmermann, Hors Series Nr. 6

vonWinterfeldt,

When you say 'Rousselot plates', do you mean the oversized book on the Guard Cavalry? Or is there some other Rousselot publication available?

By the way, all of your other recommendations are excellent, and I have all of them.

Stephen

stephen1162

I did mean the so called Rousselot plates, as far as I know the complete plates (including Ancien Regime and IIIe Empire) were recently re – printed.

stephen 1162

I completely agree with von Winterfeldt's recommendations. As a matter of fact if I were to respond to your post, my list would have been almost identical.

I would also suggest the superb "Napoleon's Last Grande Armee" by the Military History Press if you are interested in the 1813 campaigns.

The Rousselot re-prints of 1979 are readily available on eBay. For heads of the column, trumpeters, flagbearers I suggest the works of RIGO. These are easy to find as every issue of Tradition magazine includes a reprint of a RIGO plate.

Russ

I checked ebay . . . There's a 2-volume set of Rousselot plates currently at a bid of $725 USD usd. Hmmmmmm?

Stephen

They are about over 100 folders, one folder containing two A4 prints in colour in the inside pages of the folder and usually 2 or more pages of text.

So you get about over 200 A 4 Plates.

As I already mentioned, there is also a re – print.

The very original Rousselot plates were hand coloured with water colours.

then there was a re – print by Historex agents, covering only the Napoleonic time.

And now there should be a complete re – print of all plates.

I also agree with the references that VW lists as being excellent and I have them all, though my collection of Rousselot plates is not yet complete.

However, I do consider Herbert Knotel's work and Col Elting's analysis of it to be on the same level as Rousselot's.

Sincerely,
K