"Totally do not know what I want...." Topic

I'm at my whits end here…

What I want is to be able to re-create (I know I won't even get close) WW2.

I'm going to start by chronological order. Meaning, my first chunk of time will be spent in the North African theater. Brits vs Italians/German's.

When I tire of that theater…then it's off to the next significant timeline piece in WW2. Then when I tire of that…the next timeline chunk, and so on.

Now, what I'm having issues with is how can I do this? Cards would be cheap, but I'd lose the visual and I think a tad more historical accuracy.

But, it's an issue of costs. I really wanted to game in 1/76 & 72 scale, but it's so damn expensive. 15mm isn't cheap either, and since I'm looking for larger fights, I'm thinking 10mm might be my bag (although QRF 15mm's look to be at a decent price and look good).

I'm wondering if the "mechanics" of a card game (looking at Up Front) or a set of mini's rules would differ much for what it is I'm trying to accomplish. As for mini rules I'm considering "NUTS", "BKC" and another other rules that would better cater to the solo gamer.

I just cannot wrap my head around how a card game would be or could be more detailed than a mini's game. But, then I have to weight out the costs. Even at 10mm or less expensive 15mm, the North African theater would cost me close to $500 USD or more, this doesn't include the 1/144 airware gaming I'd like to do.

Someone convince me I can make a card game work…even if I have to tweak the heck out of it :)

I've looked at Up Front and the rules seem like they might give me what I'm looking for, but at this point my brain hurts and it would be nice for someone here to make the voices go away.

Thanks!

PS: this is my last post on this subject, like….forever I've been posting about this for a while, but this is my last stab at figuring out what it is I want.

It must be daunting. I think my friend went through the same conundrum as you when he started us in ACW…

Two options. My recommended is the latter.

#1 Get into cards and gradually build up your stuff. I have tons of stuff, myself, but I also have been making tank models since I was in grade 4. It takes a while to build stuff up, which is why I've always felt the collecting and modeling are an important part of the hobby.

Or,

#2 Say it and go out and buy a couple packs of men and a few tanks and play low level games to start. Don't be particular – see what the hobby store has and base your purchases on that. Give yourself a budget of 2 packs of men (one German, the other Soviet or British or American) and two to four armoured vehicle models.

Conservative estimate – Say $15 USD / figure pack, $20 USD / tank so $70 USD for 2 packs and 2 tanks to $110 USD for 2 packs and 4 tanks. You'll need paints and modeling materials and the paints you require you can determine from the figure packs (the main companies give a list of colours and how to paint on the back of the box) and from the model directions, so maybe $100, maybe less for paints and stuff.

Put them together and play. Play Nuts or TW&T or some other low level 1 man = 1 figure game to start. You really don't need the complete 24th Hitler's Backside Jugend Panzie division in 1:1 to start.

Good luck, don't be afraid to post back and ask questions. Again, when I look at the options of WWII I realize it's a daunting task. As with any large task, start small – if you like it, you can grow.
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Tim

Gaming in 1/72 is not expensive but does occupy a lot of space. Just use the plastic figs (Ertl, Pegasus etc) and get your tanks at Wallmart.

mjc

…and get your tanks at Wallmart…

Haven't seen them in Wal-mart for a long time…

I think you need to be more systemmatic about it, by buy into fronts/theaters/campaigns that give you a leg up on another theater. For example, if you start with Normandy, 1944, pretty much all the German stuff is also usable for the Russian front and Italy. Germans you paint for France 1940 also work for Barbarossa (1941 Russia).

By contrast, the desert campaign tends to give you a lot of kit that was only used in that campaign (Crusaders, for example) and will be painted in colors that didn't appear anywhere else.

You might consider 10mm or 1/144 for a scale. Availability of equipment is growing pretty fast, and a lot of the stuff comes pre-painted.

Yea, Walmarts are not carrying them anymore. I live 10 min away from one and I haven't seen anything in over a year.

Maybe I'm blind, but I've yet to see ANY 1/72 or 76 scale plastic kits cheaper than 15mm stuff. Ebay or otherwise. Obviously I'm not looking in the right places.

Also, I have a decent size table, but I think 1/72/76 scale might be a tad too big for my tastes. 6mm is WAYYY to small, 10mm is better but still small for the smaller tanks (m-3 stuarts, pz II & III's…at least for me). The 15mm stuff seems the right size, but they are damn expensive.

This might just be a pipe dream. I just don't think cards are going to give me the visuals I desire and mini's are just going to be too damn expensive.

I've tried PC games, but they are a joke, imo and provide ZERO realism.

If you want to do it large scale and economic, go 6mm. If nothing else you can get close to a matching ground scale for the vehicles and figures.

Personally I don't care for much smaller than 15mm…not saying it can't work, I just like the eye candy. You could also consider 28mm skirmish where you need much fewer minis.

I would also base the decision on what your regular wargaming opponent(s) like to play. Really helps if there are 2+ people working on a project.

Instead of cards or minis you could also consider the wargame Combat Commander. It reminds me a lot of Up Front and is a great game system. It would definitely scratch the WWII itch.

Ed G.

You need to think about what size of game you want to be doing, if you just want a platoon of infantry and a few tanks skirmishing away, you really don't need a ton of kit. If you want to do bigger battles, then look at some properly designed grand tactical and operational rules, whcih again won't need a ton of stuff. In a 1 base = 1 battalion set, 21st Panzer Division only has two tanks… (7th Armoured of Op Crusader era has rather more, but even then it is only nine).

wrt PC games, some aren't bad. Lots of people like the 'Combat Mission' games, and they cover Europe, the Desert & Eastern Front in excruciating detail.

The trouble with 1/76 or 1/72-scale plastic kits is the time (and skill) it takes to assemble them.

To do large battles on a small budget, consider 1:285 scale (GHQ et al).

Were I starting over I'd seriously look into 12mm or 10mm as a good compromise between the ultra small (1:285) and the large (15mm) and ubber large (1/72 and 25/28mm).

BTW, if you really want to go chronologically, you should start with Poland '39 and France '40 before North Africa.

I'd want larger battles, so anything beyond 20mm is out of the question and even then, 20 mm might be too big!

Also, someone eluded to what other gamers in my area use/play with. Well, this is all solo! I'm a good 30 min plus away from downtown Seattle and driving in Seattle traffic blows :)

I'd think about starting with the rules first. Since it sounds like skirmish is not what you want, cross NUTS! off the list. Great game, just too small for you. Look at Panzer Korps, Command Decision for example at the other end.

Also, there's nothing wrong with using paper minis until you get the lead painted. and yes, go 6mm or heck go 1:600 – the new Oddzial osmy stuff is wicked cool!

The Polish and Low Countries/France campaigns bore me, hence why I'd start out in North Africa.

Someone here mentioned Combat Mission for the PC. After looking at the games I'm starting to think that may be my answer. I never even heard of these games until today. They have extensive ToE's and battle generators to create your own skirmishes. Looking at the mechanics it looks like you give each unit it's order and then the game runs and the orders are acted out. Going to have to look at it some more, but this might be what I'm looking for. It's a lot cheaper than the mini's, it's still visual and takes up little space (not on the hard drive though :)

Wonder why they do not have one for the Pacific War theater?

Oh well, thank you all for your comments. Love, love, love this board/community!!

Zas,

First, I'm not a card game guy. I just don't get it and don't see why anyone else would. I can and do enjoy card games like poker, blackjack, rummy, etc; I just cannot get my brain wrapped around military style card games. Up Front was a completely cool game, but to me it was a diversion. Now, for a hobby, I need MINIATURES.

I say hobby, because that is what the miniatures hobby is. It involves accumulating materials like figures and terrain; crafting terrain and painting figs; and playing with these wonderful toys when you're done. The problem is, you're never, ever, "done." It is a hobby.

If you aren't in it for the hobby, if you just want to "Do WWII," consider one of the excellent board games available. Consider Battleground WWII computer online game, a wonderful if imperfect massive multiplayer online game that refights the early war in Europe every few months. Or, consider following and participating in giant WWII games at conventions like Historicon or its European equivalents.

Ditto Bird above leveled some serious wisdom on this subject when he said to buy a few packs of figures here and there. I'll add that you consider budgeting $10 USD a week (or $5 USD per week) to your gaming hobby. It really doesn't take long to begin to accumulate many figures. It's actually hard to paint up $10 USD worth of figures every week with all the other draws on life like work and family.

After a year, though, you will have $520 USD worth of figures, and the contacts in the hobby to make that a quality $520. USD You'll have gamed skirmishes, company, and then to battalion games, developing an appreciation for command at the of lieutenant to colonel, and ultimately to general.

I myself like 6mm figures because of the scale; they're not as impressive as models but they make for far more realistic looking formations on the tabletop battlefield. The terrain is easier and cheaper to make, and looks better.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

Jim

Yea, Walmarts

OK, you MUST be in Michigan! My wife's from there and says that's what everyone calls it…

BTW, 6mm is definitely not too small:

I myself like 6mm figures because of the scale; they're not as impressive as models but they make for far more realistic looking formations on the tabletop battlefield. The terrain is easier and cheaper to make, and looks better.

For those reasons and also if you want to build largish armies fast, it's definitely the way to go. Get GHQ and other good companies that make just beautiful and, IMHO, very impressive models in that scale. For the price of a single 1:72 model, you'll get a platoon or even two of the tanks. I have GHQ moderns and a friend has GHQ (and other companies) WWII and they really are lovely looking.
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Tim

Take a look at Panzer Flats. Top down view counters for all major players. Tanks, guns, planes, ACs, etc. A cheap way to get a BKC army up and running in no time.

12mm is having a renaissance, e.g. 1/144th scale. Selection is limited, but improving.

Cheaper than 15mm by far, and still large enough to permit you to see the infantry at that scale. Best to mount them in small fire teams.

15mm is nice, but the vehicles are getting up to the price of 1/76th and 1/72nd scale tanks.

For 1/76th, the Combat Ready range of resin vehicles, by Cromwell is superb. They don't require much in the way of assembly – just a little cleaning, prime, and paint.

AB Figures are superb, and will go nicely with the Cromwell vehicles.

1/285th or 1/300th would be fine too, but is better suited to games with lots of armor. The infantry at this scale are much less impressive – for infantry-heavy battles, go the 12mm, or larger route.

For large battles, or if you like your weapon ranges to look more realistic on the tabletop, 1/285th – 1/300th (also referred to as 6mm scale) is superb.

"Someone here mentioned Combat Mission for the PC. After looking at the games I'm starting to think that may be my answer. I never even heard of these games until today. They have extensive ToE's and battle generators to create your own skirmishes. Looking at the mechanics it looks like you give each unit it's order and then the game runs and the orders are acted out."

Yes, that is pretty much how it works. Uses 3D line of sight as well so reverse slope defences etc work very well.

If you want a more traditional hex/turn based game then Steel Panthers is also very good and covers the entire war. IIRC it is a free download too.

Both of these are a billion times better than the likes of Call of Duty or Medal of Honor.

I keep hearing how expensive 15mm is, especially vice 20mm. Try checking out the Old Glory's Command Decision range at warweb:
link

While I generally prefer FOW items I do have a fair number of Command Decision and some of the models are quite good. At their normal 40 percent off a pack of 3 tanks costs you $13.20 USD or $4.30 USD a tank.

Well, after reading up on Combat Mission and the 2 expansions (it covers everything except the Pacific theater, which is fine) and some reviews, I think this might offer me what I want….a decent sim at $60 USD or so total.

Now, air combat I'm sticking with mini's and it's just WAAAAAYYYY too cool having a boat loat of 1/144 P-51's up against some FW.190's. 1/144 in air combat isn't nearly as expensive that it's land counterpart.

Thanks for everyone's comments and advice!!!

well if you are settling on a PC game that looks and plays like minitures try SPWW2 All theatres of operation in one game. play scenarios, campaigns, create your own…and best of all its free! free version at bottom of page. (not a sock puppet…only a satisfied user for the last 12 years when I want a quick fix without setting up my minis and terrain!)

link

Thanks BuckeyeBob

I've played SP and it's an awesome game, but…I do not like the top down view.

Might use it for some Pacific theater fighting, but again, War in the Pacific:Admiral Ed looks like a winner and covers both land and sea conflicts.

Oh no, boys, we've lost him!
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Tim

haven't lost me completely….nothing can take the place of 1/144 mini aerial war gaming!!

"Also, someone eluded to what other gamers in my area use/play with. Well, this is all solo! I'm a good 30 min plus away from downtown Seattle and driving in Seattle traffic blows :)"

dude, what side of Seattle are you on? No one games *in* Seattle, but a lot of us do *around* Seattle. I live on Whidbey Island and drive to Kirkland to game ('cause I think I'm the only one on the island who actually plays). I know there are all sorts of folks down around Tacoma, etc., but I don't know what they play.

In short, see what's around! I know there's a WW2 game at the Panzer Depot in Kirkland this Saturday (Kampfgruppe Commander), because I'm tasked with bringing my German paras. Stop on by, meet the boys…

Zas, I have to agree, 1:144 air is a wonderful tabletop presentation with relatively few models; air to air is definitely an economical option.

Have you considered paper flats or top downs- try Junior General- they copy/paste into Paint so you can edit. I temd to copy into Word once happy with a piece, then reduce it to 10mm. Because of the way Word handles pictures you get a blending and softening of colours and lines that improve them.