"1980's French Iron Hand?" Topic

I'm boning up on the 1980's Iran-Iraq War and see that the US and French sent carriers to the gulf to escort shipping against the Iranians. I see some nice hypothetical scenarios here.

The Clemenceau carried a dozen F-8E's, a dozen Super Etendards and 4 Etendard IVMs plus helos. Supposing things escallated a bit more than they actually did and the French sent strike packages to spank the Iranian Silkworm sites and the air and naval facilities at Bushehr, they probably would have had to face HAWK missile batteries as well as some F-4 Phantoms. I know ECM pods were available but I don't see any references to the Shrike or a French version of it. Any input and thoughts welcome!

Also, regarding the French F-8, they carried the Matra & Magic 530 and 550 radar and IR missiles. I'm having trouble pinning down how many of which. 2 at a time? 2 each? I'm unclear whether they had the Y-rack that allowed US F-8's to carry 4 Sidewinder missiles instead of 2.

Thanks…

ETA: I ran across the following while researching the F-8. It's about the decommissioning ceremony of the last F-8 squadron (French) in the world. It's too good not to share.

"First, the guys. Terrific guys. Both French and American, Navy and Marine. Guys with everything from 300 to 3,000 hours in the F-8. Some who just flew it, most who deeply loved it – with a passion perhaps surpassing any other love in our lives. I saw guys that I haven't seen, literally, in 35 years. We immediately bonded, and the real wives watched over us like indulgent mothers. The trophy wives, of whom there were several, didn't have a clue. But they sure looked good….

"We talked flying the F-8 in every way, and against every type of aircraft. We heard stories from the guys there that would curl your hair, and ones that would make you laugh out loud. One of the guys had ejected TWICE, within two months, and was absolutely hilarious. Talked about the time that the wing came off his bird, he didn't know it, and was zealously going through all the spin recovery techniques, including blowing the wing, until someone advised him that he HAD no wing. Another (French) guy had a cold catapult, stayed in the airplane while the carrier passed overhead, hearing the thrumm of the screws as they passed by the plane, before ejecting – and lived. Talk about balls and SA! And they were all "our kind of guys". Guys who had lived and flown on the edge, could laugh at themselves, and left the highpoint of their lives in that cockpit.

"The planes themselves were stunningly beautiful. Sitting in the cockpit was like returning to the womb. The hands and feet just moved, without conscious thought, to the right places. Think a procedure, and the right switches were under your fingers. And the wonderful sound of the J-57. No other sound like it. Just idling, it set my blood racing. And when they banged the burners, if it wasn't better than sex, it was damned close.

"The French pilots from the last active squadron were wonderful. Just like we were at their ages. And they flew the plane beautifully and illegally. The airshow passes were often at less than 100 feet, and more than 500 knots, all right over us. Oil cooler doors open, hard lights on the burners passing over our heads. The noise too powerful to be heard, only felt. Glorious.

"As we watched them, we laughed, and we cried. We turned to each other and shared the joy and the longing. We were watching the final moments of our youth, and a special time in the annals of flying, as they passed into history. For many it was incredibly bittersweet. For moments we were 23 again, not 55 or 65, or even 75. And then, at the end, that youth was forever gone. Replacing it was a knowledge that what we had done was good, and special, and a privilege beyond description. And we were all, regardless of service or country, bound together by this shared bond.

Nice one, Daniel. Thanks for sharing. Still, I get the impression it doesn't matter what a jet jockey flies – they all go to pieces over their preferred mount.

Still – can you blame 'em?

I'm boning up on the 1980's Iran-Iraq War and see that the US and French sent carriers to the gulf to escort shipping against the Iranians. I see some nice hypothetical scenarios here

Nice idea Dan.i am waiting for a copy of The Iran-Iraq war in the Air that I ordered through inter library loan to turn up for the same purpose, but i like the idea of French against Iran, a bit of a variation in aircraft, amd i have a soft spot for the Etendard. I'm painting some for the falklands now. I was going to do some for iraq but maybe I'll have to do french instead.

That's the main source I'm using and it's excellent. The Iranians had 9 or 10 serviceable F-4's at Bushehr, so adding them to the defense should make things interesting for a French strike force.

According to link they had the Y-racks, but those weren't compatible with the Matras.

Tid-bit:

On May 7th 1977, two Crusaders went separately on patrol against supposedly French Air Force (4/11 Jura squadron) F-100 Super Sabres stationed at the Djibouti joint forces air base. The leader intercepted two fighters and engaged a dogfight (supposed to be a training exercise) but quickly called his wingman for help….he had actually engaged two Yemenite Mig-21 Fishbed armed with four missiles each. The two French fighters switched their master armament to "on", but in the end everyone returned to his base. This was the only ever combat interception by a French Crusader.

Some more interesting info on the missiles:
Two Matra 530 air-to-air missiles. After reliability problems (65% failure rate in 1980), are abandoned in 1991.

Daniel wrote:

The Clemenceau carried a dozen F-8E's, a dozen Super Etendards and 4 Etendard IVMs plus helos. Supposing things escallated a bit more than they actually did and the French sent strike packages to spank the Iranian Silkworm sites and the air and naval facilities at Bushehr, they probably would have had to face HAWK missile batteries as well as some F-4 Phantoms. I know ECM pods were available but I don't see any references to the Shrike or a French version of it. Any input and thoughts welcome!

The French anti-radiation missile in service until at least 1987 was Martel. The successor ARM to Martel, Armat, achieved IOC in 1984 (and was sold to Iraq). However, these missiles are usually carried by Jaguars or Mirages; I believe that the Atlantique is the only Aeronavale aircraft cleared to carry them.

I seem to recall that European air forces used quite different ground attack tactics from the US in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Rather than the US-style medium altitude attack, using a massive strike package with flights for specialist defence-suppression and top cover missions, the European style was to go in right on the deck. Rather than take on the SAMs directly with ECM, ARMs and SEAD bombing, they planned to avoid the SAMs by going in too low to be engaged. Military low flying is now regarded as too dangerous to practice in peacetime in most places, but in 1980 I saw aircraft of the Armee de l'Air exercising against other NATO air forces at well below 500 feet, and they were allowed to trail sonic booms across the countryside as well, which was good to hear.

I do not know what tactics Aeronavale trained in at the tine you are interested in, but I would strongly suspect that they would use the low-level methods common to Western European air forces, if for no other reason than that the carrier's air group is not big enough to include separate SEAD flights in the strike. Recall that the Fleet Air Arm, also cursed with small air groups, stuck with low-level attacks during the Falklands War.

All the best,

John.

John,

I think you're right or very close to it. If the Super Etendards are attacking low and fast in pairs or 4's what role would the F-8 play? Escort to and from the strike area and loiter out of range while the love is delivered?

IIRC during the last Gulf war, British Tornados suffered a very high attrition rate from low level penetration. The tactic became headline news for a while i think. So apparently it was still the tactic of choice until fairly recently.

Daniel asked:

If the Super Etendards are attacking low and fast in pairs or 4's what role would the F-8 play? Escort to and from the strike area and loiter out of range while the love is delivered?

Sounds reasonable to me. I understand that F-8s escorted Super Etendards in strikes in Lebanon in 1983.

Incidentally,

link

gives the AAM armament of Aeronavale F-8s as either:

4 Sidewinders (out of service 1986) or
2 Matra R530 (out of service 1991) or
2 Matra R550 Magic 2

All the best,

John.

Sounds reasonable to me. I understand that F-8s escorted Super Etendards in strikes in Lebanon in 1983.

So another hypothetical would be Syrian MiGs against the F8's and Etendards…

If desired, F-8's could be armed with bombs/rockets to perform SEAD missions as well.

Some units were switched to a ground attack role during Vietnam, due to the lack of air targets.

Apparently the VPAF didn't like to play with the F-8 Crusader units, since they were too maneuverable, and well trained in air-to-air combat, so they tried to avoid them whenever possible.

Would *you* want to tangle with a dedicated interceptor, armed with 4x 20mm cannon and 2x-4x Sidewinders, which also had enough horsepower to outrun just about anything in the air?

Crusaders are one of my favorite birds.

I'd assume that the French Crusaders would probably play tag with the opposing air forces. Nobody's going to have both aircraft and SAMs in the same sky, so you'd see one or the other.

For an interesting game, I'd say Crusaders versus Phantoms while the Etendards deliver high-explosive love.

Good points, Lion. 8-10 F-8's escorting vs the same number of F-4's should be a blast. The Iranian pilots were pretty experienced by that time so the French should have their hands full.

Regarding Lebanon, selected snips from ACIG – Disaster in Lebanon: US and French Operations in 1983

This gives a pretty good look at French activity over Lebanon at the time. The Syrians had Mig-21MFs and early Mig-23s. I can see some of them mixing in as well at some point to spice a game up.

link

The first to arrive were French paras of the Foreign Legion, flown in directly from Corsica aboard Transall transport aircraft of the ET-64 already on 19 August. Six days later the first US Marines arrived, supported by the French carrier Foch (R-99), and its Super Etendards and Crusaders. The French naval fighters were very soon to be deployed in combat: in reaction to some Syrian troop movements, considered threatening for the MNF troops, on 20 August 1982 eight Super Etendards bombed Syrian positions near Ein Dara and Dahra el-Baidar. The strike was considered as a "signal" to the Syrians, and its results were consequently only marginal.

Nevertheless, the French followed the suit, starting regular overflights of the area by their Super Etendards and Crusaders from the newly-arrived carrier Clemenceau…

With British assistance three old Hunter F.Mk.70s were made airworthy and in September 1983 they flew their first combat operations. On 15 September the three Lebanese Hunters – supported by French Super Etendards – attacked Druze positions in the Shouf Mountains.

With their Legionaries under heavy pressure on the ground, the French were the first to feel forced to counterattack again. On 19 September eight Super Etendards, escorted by eight Crusaders, attacked the Druze artillery positions near Dhour el-Choueir, Dahr El and a Dara with 454kg bombs and unguided rockets calibre 68mm. A single Etendard IVP was sent to make post-strike photographs as well, but one of the two Crusaders escorting it was heavily hit by flak and the pilot made a barrier landing aboard the Clemanceau.

The USA seems not to have had a clear idea how and against who to react at the time, but the French felt it was time for another air raid against one of Druze or Syrian positions. On 17 November 1983 ten Super Etendards bombarded carefully selected bases of the Shi'ia Militia and the Iranians in the Balbek, while four hit the main base of the Jihad-al-Islami – the organization that took the responsibility for bombings of US and French headquarters – with napalm bombs. The French fighter-pilots were confronted by a considerable amount of flak and several SA-7s and their attack was not especially precise, most of their bombs landing in the nearby vineyards. The Shi'ia losses were nevertheless heavy.

This data is so cool! Nice to see the French flyers recognized for "doing the job" when duty called.

Gracias,

Glnn

You're welcome. It's nice to have pals here to share it with. Just ordered more TD 1/600's from Dom to make a lot of this happen. I "Maplandia.com'd" the area in and around Bushehr and cleared up the target situation. It's right on the coast so the French approach is either suicidal (coming in straight off the sea) or dangerous (feet dry away from the target and approach using terrain from deeper in Iran).

Expect some battle reports within a month – the time it'll take Dom to get the goods to me, me to paint and mount them, and Fox Two…

Minor project update. Flight bases from Em-4 in UK ordered late last Thursday and in my hand in northern Illinois the following Tuesday. Wow!

Still waiting for the a/c from Dom ordered at the same time.

One more update before hostilities flare! Dom's aircraft arrived and are mostly painted. I decided the first French target will be a new Iranian Silkworm site close to Bandar Abbas, so Bushehr won't be involved. A dozen F-8's will escort 11 Super Etendards, another lone SE being tasked to follow up with BDA after.

When the Iranians bought the Silkworms from China they also got SA-2 copies and cheap Mig-21 knockoffs. The target will be defended by some of those SA-2's and F-4's from Bandar's TFB9 will try to break up the strike. Assuming the Iranian CGI can handle the problem we'll see how well the French F-8's cope with BVR Sparrow shots before getting to dogfight range. If you haven't noticed, I'm really looking forward to this…