"Bavarian light infantry tactics" Topic

This may be too specialised, but given the knowledge of one or two of our European members, I am still hopeful.

1) Prior to the move to a six-company battalion, integral skirmishers in the line battalions came from the third rank of the grenadier and three fusilier companies. However, not all of the third rank were designated skirmishers – only 36 of the 50-60 men in each rank. What did the "left over" men do, remain in the third rank as one or more "clumps", or join the front two ranks and extend them?

2) Did the light infantry battalions have a specific drill book or did they copy another nation (eg Austria)?

3) Roughly 1 in 5 skirmishers from the line battalions was rifle-armed. Did these riflemen group together in action? If not, how did these men interract with the musket-armed skirmishers?

4) Did the light infantry battalions have riflemen as well? (I understand the Bavarian rifle was copied from the Austrians, but there were a lot of problems with bursting barrels because the Bavarians didn't alter the amount of powder in the cartridge – is this true?)

5) After the 1811(?) reforms, did the light companies and light battalions adopt French skirmishing practices/drills?

6) In either/both of the four- and six-company periods, did the light companies of a regiment (or brigade) combine to "front" the regiment(s) on the march and in battle (eg as happened with the British in the Peninsula)?

Oh! Bavarians. I got crazy and at a recent sale ordered enough Bavarians to make several big units. I have Nafziger's "the armies of the kingdom of Bavaria and the grand duchy of Wuerzburg, 1792-1815" at at the risk of plagarizing too much (people let me know if I'm over the line) found the following, which might indicate at least a direction in answering the above questions.

"some of the Schuetzen carried rifled weapons and a powder horen with a large green tassel. In 1811, the schuetzen companes of the infantry regimeents and the light batattalions all carried 40 rifles in their thrid rank." …."There were 20 schuetuzen assigned to each company"(pg27)

"In May 1804 there was a major reworking of the Bav. infantry drill regulations. Its authors, Deryo and Wrende, moved away form the Frederickian linear tactics and adopted many of the French innovative tactics."……Bavarian with French influence?

"The mountanious regions of Bavaria are such that they wre impossible fighting terrain for regular units….7 Oct 1805 tow abteilungs of 1K foot jagers nad 25 mounted jagers were raised"… pg33

There is a section (pg45) on the Tatical Organization of the Mobile Legions (1813) which might by inference tell on the earlier usage.

pg 70 on the 3rd Rheinbund regiment says…"each compnay had a schutzen detackment of 20 me, including 6 gefreutee They were differentiated from the rest.. means of a green "huppe" pr tuft on their helmets…."

Pg 80 a 1809 battle report "..however the Bavarians quickly formed square and fired a volley at 15 paces that shattered the Austrian cavalry's attack. At the same time the Bavarian schuetzen in the edge of the woods tool the Autstrian cavalry under fire, inflickting further casulties on them"

Reading between the lines, it looks to me that part of the 3rd ranks were rifle armed schutzen and they alone acted as light troops and skirmisher to operate in broken terrain. They seemed to model themselves to some extent on French examples (who didn't to some extent) but continued to recognize the riflemen as something different than swarms of skirmishers- in both light/line units and even seperate mountain units.

Just for excitment pg 16:
"In additional addition to the Turkish music establishment (regimental) there was a special musical group consisitn of a Jinging Johhny 9a pole with bells attached) a large and small timpani, a cresent or half moon and two pairs of cymbals". WHO HAS THESE FIGURES!!!!

A Bavarian with a Jingling Johnny?
Damn, I'd buy that in a second.

Well, if it helps promote safe sex……

Doesn't actually answer the questions – but maybe points the way on a few….

To speak about the Bavarians needs to look at pre-1804 1804-1811 and post 1811.

The regulations prior to 1804 were Germanic in flavour.

The Regulations Commission that was set up issued 4 main adaptions during 1804 & 1805.
#1 Was increase in speed of manouver paces
#2 Was change to 2 ranks for ALL infantry
#3 Was tactical organisation of companies
#4 Was skirmishers
Post 1811 they adopted the 6 company French organisation with a specific company as the main skirmish element of the line troops.

Geschichte des Bayerischen Heeres 6vols 1933 – is a good source book for an overview of these, but sadly only in german and rather scarce.
On the basis of their text I beg to differ with the Nafziger book on influence as it specifically says that the 1805 changes were based on principles established by Prussian and Hessian infantry after the Champagne campaign.

Babble fish translates a section as -:
„
The substantial determination of the people particularly selected to Schutzen consists of it, either alone or through to the Plänkern from the battalion detachment supported providing the Light troop service to the line regiments. They become from there to all Avant and Rear garden, Recognoszierungen, forwards and sides troops, for the covering of on and march, holding hostile Plänker, to creeping patrols, and at all to all such Detachements uses, which requires outside the battalion special skill and good shooting. "„Certain rules themselves do not give, as only terrain and circumstance concern the necessary measures that of behavior. " This regulation corresponds completely after the experiences and the report of the Smirs. Of Kinkel from September 1800 at the Prussian and Hessian regiments after the campaign in the Champagne accomplished principles for the special training of the snipers and Tirailleure.
In the zerfreuten order signals (22) with the horn trten in place of the command. In addition signs and indications were appropriately recommended as fehr. On the Rus or the signal: Contactors forwards! Pull themselves these by the freigemachen Lucken zwichen the individual zuges before the front company and set up themselves in such a way that them the latters to both sides around 8 to 10 steps over wings. The even numbers come as the second rank a step behind and on the right of sideways the odd to stand the first member forming Rummern. This arrangement ermoglichte „that two together divided contactors as inseparable and as two men regards, who are certain, in all opportunities other after forces to assist and to vertheidigen."
"

Geschichte des Bayerischen Heeres. Im Auftrage des Kriegsministeriums hrsg. v. Königlich Bayrisches Kriegsarchiv:

1. Bd.(München, 1901) Geschichte des kurbayerischen Heeres insbesondere unter Kurfürst Ferdinand Maria , 1651 – 1679; bearbeitet v. Karl Staudinger; XII, 644, 139 S.;

Bd. 2.1 u. 2.2 (ebd., 1904/05) Geschichte des kurbayerischen Heeres unter Kurfürst Max II. Emanuel 1680 – 1726. Bearb. v. K. Staudinger; 1. Halbband: XVII, 762 S. 2. Halbband: XII, S. 764 – 1348, 120 S., 8 Karten;

Bd. 3.1 u. 3.2 (ebd., 1908/09) Geschichte des kurbayerischen Heeres unter Kurfürst Karl Albrecht – Kaiser Karl VII- und Kurfürst Max III. Joseph. 1726 – 1777, bearb. v. K. Staudinger:
1. Halbband: XVI, 472, 37 S;
2. Halbband: X, S. 474 – 1273 S. 8 Karten;

4. Bd. (ebd., 1925/28) Geschichte des Kurpfälzischen Heeres von seinen Anfängen bis zur Vereinigung von Kurpfalz und Kurbayern 1777 nebst Geschichte des Heerwesens in Pfalz-Zweibrücken. bearb. v. Oskar Bezzel:
1. Halbband: XIX, 563, 102 S. und 1 (von 2) Karten.
2. Halbband: IX, 596 S. und 3 (von 4) Karten.

5. Bd.(ebd.,1930) Geschichte des Kurpfalzbayerischen Heeres von 1778 bis 1803. von Oskar Bezzel. XXIII, 783 S. und 2 Karten;

Bd. 6.1. u. 6.2.: (ebd. 1933/35) Geschichte des Königlich Bayerischen Heeres unter König Max I. Joseph von 1806 (1804) bis 1825. bearb. O. Bezzel:
1. Halbband: XVI, 328 S. und 2 mehrfach, gefaltete Anlagen.
2. Halbband: Die Feldzüge des königlich Bayerischen Heeres unter Max Joseph von 1805 bis 1815; von Max Leyh. XVI, 534 S. und 11 (von 30?) Skizzen (Karten).

7. Bd. (ebd., 1931) Geschichte des Königlich Bayerischen Heeres von 1825 mit 1866 bearb. v. O. Bezzel; XVI, 390 S. und 1 Karte.

8. Bd. (ebd. 1931) Geschichte des Königlich Bayerischen Heeres von 1867 bis 1914 von Eugen v. Frauenholz. XV, 606 S.

Insgesamt 12 Bände.

<<Reading between the lines, it looks to me that part of the 3rd ranks were rifle armed schutzen and they alone acted as light troops and skirmisher to operate in broken terrain.>>

In the four-company battalion, each company had 180 men (on paper, but field strengths seem to have been kept pretty close to this) and 36 men from the third rank of each company were designated "schutzen". One in five (ie seven) of each 36 was rifle-armed – I assume the odd guy was a senior NCO, and that an officer would have been attached from somewhere. Worth noting that the four detachments of 36 men in each battalion would have totalled 144 NCOs/R&F – the same as the number of ORs left in each company after the schutzen had been taken out.

Steven H Smith,

Thank you for your time and effort in posting all of those references. Whilst it is unlikely that I shall ever be in a position to research them first-hand, I may be able to get someone to look at them for me. Do any of them cover specific aspects of my questions, or are the answers liberally "salted" througout?

If the 1804 Commission authorized the infantry to deploy in two-ranks, how do we explain that, prior to the 1811 reorganization to the French six-company battalion, the skirmish element would have come from the third rank? Perhaps the schutzen were grouped by battalion, four sections of 36, into an ad hoc schutzen company – and as it's been pointed out the combined strength of that unit would have been equal to the other individual companies, that is, 144 men.
So, prior to 1811, effectively the battalion was 'five' companies, formed in two ranks for combat purposes.

Super,

"Salted" througout! But you knew that already. <;^}

These volumes can often be found at libraries. Search by author.

I have vols 4, 5 and 6.

Steve

Volumes 5 & 6 cover the Napoleonic period, just volume 6 if you want 1805,1809,1812-1815.

The answers in full I doubt exist, and in these volumes they do not have as an appendix, or elsewhere, the full text of the Reglements Commission. Nor when I skimmed through did it mention adoption of French manouver regulations to match the French organisation in 1811.

As far as I read
1) Between 1804 and 1811 there was no 3rd rank. After 1811 the schutzen were a company of their own.
2) No, though Hessian & Prussian is stated as their influence
3)& 4) pass
5) The only basis I know of is that in the absence of a drill manual 'French practice' would have had to been specifically taught by French officers to them -of which I have seen no record occured. So best guess is they retained Hessian practice.
6) The section babbeled above does mention covering the front of a march, and it does say covering Line Regiments, which suggests they did when appropriate combine to cover a larger front. But without some combat reports detailing their actual battle practice it is impossible to say to what extent or competence they habitually did this.

Leben des Grafen Bernhard Erasmus v. Deroy: k. b. Generals der Infanterie by Johann Heilmann. Published by the Verlag der M. Rieger'schen Buchhandlung, 1855. 130 pages.

This volume has in the back the 1804 regulation in full written by Deroy.

I have a copy but it is in storage.

Steve

Might check these volumes:

Geschichte des K. bayer. 2. (vormals 3.) Jääger-Bataillons nebst einer kurzgefassten darstellung der geschichte seiner stammabteilungen, 1753-1898 by Paul Kneussl. Published by the Kgl. Universitäätsdruckerei, 1899:

link

Geschichte des Königl. Bayer. 4. Jääger-bataillons by Franz Joseph Berg. Published by J.F. Rietsch, 1887:

Vol 1 (-1825):
link

Vol 2 (1825-):
link

3)Same as most other 'rifle' armed groups. Short carbine men covered the rifle troops whilst the rifles loaded. Broken up into small groups rather than rifle clump and several short carbine groups.
4)Dont think so – will have to look up and edit
5)Always assumed French training and tactics. Good Q.
6)Yes and no. in the 1809 campaign some divisions battalions schutzen were combined into an adhoc light battalion which joined the official light battalions and cavalry to form a light/advance gaurd brigade. Whilst in others division they were retained to screen and fight with the parent battalion.

Dig out with Eagles to glory for Bavarian troops in 1809.

Ligniere:

I haven't seen the Bavarian regulations, so I can't speak to this directly. The schutzen model was first developed by the Prussians, starting in 1769. In 1789 the schutzen instructions came out. It required the schutzen to *always* be deployed as skirmishers. They were never in closed formation with the parent battalion. This may be the case for the Bavarians.

Bill H.