"Johnny Reb vs Johnny Reb III" Topic

Hello Everyone -

After many, many years of being out of Civil War wargaming, and avoiding it, I've decided to give it another look.

I brought my copy of Johnny Reb (2nd Ed.) out of storage and started to look through it.

When looking at various sites on the internet I noticed that several are now using JB III. Can anyone tell me what the big deal is between the two and if, and why, I should consider going with it instead?

Also, I noticed that the basing dropped down from 5 bases to four. Why did this happen? I really like the 5 base unit.

One last thing, my original armies where in 15mm (they were the old Empire minis) these will be in 25mm. Anyone care to give their thoughts on the Old Glory Civil War range. Are they any good?

Thanks!
Larry

Glad you asked the question, ironicly I just dusted off my 20 year old Johnny Reb rules so looking forward to the comments!

The new Old Glory 2nd Edition ACW are really fine. Although limited to marching, each pack has four variations, They have officers, nco's, drummers, and standard-bearers. The figures are (as is natural) slim. They are sculpted by the talented Chris Hughes and fit well with his own Sash and Saber miniatures.

The old Old Glory ACW are acceptable, but some people find their sometimes too energetic poses objectionable. They are, however, good figures that look good painted up. A wide variety of poses. They cannot be placed on the same base as Second Edition figures.

My gang has played both JR2 and JR3. JR3 is a lot more streamlined with less historical grit. That didn't bother me as much since I found many of the minor differences between various types of artillery evened out. But combat, morale checks and especially charges were a lot easier to resolve with JR3. But i'm not a specialist in the era so I don't know what historicity was sacrificed.

Well … you really need a JR expert to pop in here and give yoh the full details on the differences. I've never even seen JR2 and I only received my copy of JR3 yesterday.

However, I've been reading up on various rule sets for over a year, and took some notes. These will have nothing to do with game mechanics, but …

JR2 1 figure = 20 men, JR3 1 figure = 30 men. So that's probably why a typical regiment went from 5 stands of 4 figures to 4 stands of 4 figures.

JR2 1 artillery piece represented a section (2 guns). In JR3 one artillery piece represents the entire battery (4-6 guns).

JR2 1" = 40 yards, JR3 1" = 50 yards.

In JR3 1 turn represents about 20 minutes of real time. I was never able to track down what the time scale was for JR2.

The few other notes I have essentially said that JR2 was easier to learn, but took longer to play because of lots of extra, grittier rules. JR3 was a lot harder to learn due to vague writing, and the recommendation was to play your first couple of games with someone who had played them before. After that, the games flow more quickly and a bit smoother, because many of the extra rules were streamlined or removed.

Take all that with the usual warnings though. I was grabbing snippets about a bunch of different rules, to see if I could figure out which ones had the level of detail I was looking for.

I held off getting JR3 forever because I was introduced to Squad Leader many, many years ago and hated that level of detail. The only game I can truly say I played to the end and disliked every single minute. And that guy is the same guy who wrote Johnny Reb.

But … it's my birthday this week, and I figured I should at least own the best selling regimental ACW rule set, just so I can see what all the talk is about, and know why I should hate it.

And I've been reading them, and quite like them actually. Now I'm trying to figure out if the basing I was planning to use (for Guns At Gettysburg) will work with JR3.

Anyway, hopefully someone else will pop in with years of experience with both versions and they will give you all the details about what changed beyond the simple scale and figure ratios I rattled off.

Steve

I think that Seattlegamer got it right. JR2 was much easier to understand, but a game can take awhile. JR3 works well, plays fast(well, except the charge sequence takes awhile), and is a pretty good representation of ACW combat, but the rules do take a thorough reading or two. Many JR players are torn between JR3 and going back to JR2 as JR2 was a lot of fun, especially if you had a club that all knew the rules. I have both and can never decide which one is better!

Thanks everyone!!

I guess I will get a copy of JRIII just to check them out.

Is there any reason why a person couldn't use aspects of both? Couldn't you use JRII with the streamlined aspects of JRIII?

Seattlegamer – Happy B-Day week!!!

Is there anywhere we can still get JRII?

I was new to ACW and bought JRIII – but II also sounds good.

Sorry if this is a silly suggestion, but have you tried the johnny reb yahoo group.

link

Mick

laager50 -

Yup, I went to them first. My question is post #10669. The ONLY response I got was someone trying to get me to try the Perry plastics.

rct75001 -

One just sold on eBay for about $24. USD You can still buy them on-line if you hunt for it.

Sorry for the delay in responding. We have a limited number of JR II boxed sets in stock (then they are gone forever), as well as some seperate JR II rule books. We also have JR III available and available from many reliable vendors out there.

Unfortunately, I have not had time to discuss the differences between the rules. End of month crunch time at work. I did look for an old document that explained everything, but I was not able to find it.

Since this question has been asked in the past, I am sure a search of the messages should turn up something. I will check later tonight or Tuesday.

Feel free to call me as it would be easier to explain the differences than trying to type them out at the present moment.

Doug
Battlefieldterrain.com

Interesting that you are thinking about Johnny Reb, as I played my only two games of it at recent conventions. I have played and own Guns at Gettysburg, and quite like them. They play similarly except for charges, which I have yet to understand for JR. Also, morale seems to have a greater net effect in GaG (an unfortunate acronym, that) than JR.

In any case, I enjoyed my games of Johnny Reb, and would not turn down a chance to play them again, in either version.

gregoryk

Correus,

I have a streamlined beginners chart for Johnny Reb 3 posted on my Johnny Reb 3 gaming site (CHARGE!). (see link below)

My wife and I are the co-founders of the Johnny Reb Gaming Society, and feel free to send me any questions at scottmingusATyahooDOTcom. I haven't been regularly checking the Yahoo Group recently, so I missed your original question.

Anyway, check out the easy to follow modified rules chart, which was created with the written permission of the rules author John Hill.

link

We offer free scenarios for JR on our website and 2-4 additional scenarios each quarter in our newsletter that comes free with an annual membership to the JRGS.

I do not know of anyone running JRII at HMGS-East conventions but there are usually JRIII games. On to Gettysburg also is gaining some loyal support.

Most of the main differences are discussed above. Also there are plenty of postings on JRII vs JRIII in the yahoo group archives that you can search.

VR
James Mattes

Thanks Everyone!!!

The two are very different games. JR 2 has more detail and looks a bit better while JR 3 works better for larger battles.

Is it possible to use the JRII Basing system with the JRIII rules or does it create too many problems?

Same base sizes; not a problem. Just use 1 less base per regiment in JR3.

Or not! We have guys play with five base units. Not an issue as long as you know the BUS factor. I am doing something different along those lines to scale up JRIII to 40mm figures and mounting.
VR
James Mattes

What is the 'BUS factor'?

While we're waiting for an explanation of BUS … could someone tell me what the differences were between the boxed GDW Johnny Reb (which I assume this is JRI) and the separate Johnny Reb rules (prior to the latest version, which I assume is JRII).

Or are JRI and JRII essentially the same thing, one published by GDW and came in a box with other stuff, and one sold separately by a different company later?

I ask because I picked up a boxed Johnny Reb off ebay and it arrived today, and I'm wondering if this is essentially JRII with perhaps some slight tweaks (or maybe even no tweaks), or if it's way different from JRII.

Or … I could read the back of the frickin box, and see that the GDW boxed set of rules is called the Second Edition.

So … never mind. Guess I have the 2nd edition, and can compare that to the 3rd edition which arrived last week!

I am a JR2 fan. I began wargaming with JR2, moved to Fire & Fury, found that I missed everything it lacked from JR2, the scope, the detail, etc. I moved back (rebasing my entire army both times, ish).

I took some time off from gaming (kept painting) and have recently returned to it, couple of ACW games in the last year, all JR2.

For a short time I considered Johnny Reb III but I can't get over the smaller units (they just look too small). I painted a lot of unique regiments and cutting off a stand (that could not be regrouped to make another regiment) felt like a bad move. So, I might be missing a lot, but I am encouraging of those who keep playing JR2 out of my personal preference.

The "less historical detail" also nags at me regarding Johnny Reb III. I find that if you try to scale JR2 beyond one player per brigade then it likely drops the historical nature right away (while adding significant overhead).

Cheers,

The Bandit

Related question: I saw on the Charge! website that all the cavalry appears to be based in a single rank with either 2 or 3 figures in a single row. That differs from JR2 when all cavalry is based in two ranks with 2-4 figures per base.

Can anyone verify for me what the basing is for JR3 for cavalry?

Just curious as to if it indeed changed and perhaps if someone knows why it changed?

Thanks!

Cheers,

The Bandit

You have it correct Bandit.

For JR2 you mount 4 mounted figures to a single base in what amounts to two ranks (placement can be haphazard, so there is no need to have 4 mounted figures lined up in two ranks of two). For 15mm the base would be 1" wide by 2" deep.

And remember, in JR2 each figure represents 20 men for infantry. It does NOT specifically state3 what a single cavalry figure represents. The one example of cavalry basing shows 5 stands of 4 figures, and calls it a 300 man cavalry regiment (so … 15 men per figure for cavalry, or thats a type on the rules). And the standard regiment is 5 bases.

For JR3 you mount 2 or 3 figures to a single base. For 15mm that is a 3/4" wide x 1" deep for 2 figures, or a 1" wide x 1 1/2" deep for 3 figures. Number of figures varies because a 4-stand unit is a battalion (not a regiment) with 2-3 battalions being a regiment. This is so a cavalry regiment takes up 2-3 times the space of an infantry regiment.

And remember, in JR3 each figure represents 30 men. And the standard regiment is 4 bases.

So I can confirm it changed (as I just looked it up in my newly acquired JR2 and JR3 rule sets).

Why?

Guessing here, but first, the representation changed. From 1 = 20 to 1 = 30. So there are less figures needed to represent the same number of troopers. This accounts for why a standard infantry regiment went from 5 bases to 4.

HOWEVER, in JR3 there is a sidebar historical "comment" that a cavalry unit takes up 3 times the space of an infantry unit.

So I'm thinking Scott wanted to maintain the much larger "footprint" of a cavalry unit, while taking less figures to do so. The solution is to base fewer figures on more bases to equal a cavalry regiment.

In JR2 a regiment would be 5 4-figure bases. In JR3 you need a minimum of two battalions, of 4 bases each. So that's 8 bases minimum (could be as many as 12). And the cavalry bases are slightly larger than the infantry.

Again, just a guess.

Interesting, I did not know that cavalry regiments in JR3 were a variable number of bases. I wonder how well or poorly it would work to use JR3 basing for cavalry with JR2 …

Thoughts?

Cheers,

The Bandit