"Principes for Zama" Topic

The first batch of Principes to go with the Hastati I finished a couple of weeks ago:

link

The 1st Corps figures are very finely detailed. I don't think you can see it on the photos, but they have even modelled the hobnails on the soles of the caligae that are raised from the base.

Now to get on with the next lot…

Paul

I like the 1st Corps Republican Romans a lot. I can't say they're my favorite of my three RR armies, as the Old Glory figures I did before them took a lot of extra work to replace pilum heads, so I'm invested in them; and the Gripping Beast Romans I did later are charming, too. They're all good! But I do like the detail.

Nice work on those!

Allen

Thanks, Allen. The problem will be keeping the momentum.

Paul

It sounds like you have found a workable pace, though.

Allen

Paul, nice figures! Mike Adams

Looking good Paul! How many legions are you painting?

Simon

Thanks, Mike and everyone else, for the encouragement. Simon, I've decided to take the plunge and go for all four legions; that way, they're all painted and based the same, and I'll have the Republican Roman army I knew I'd eventually organise. The idea is to paint two "red" legions, or should that be RED!!! because they are very. These will be the Romans; the others will be white for the socii. There's no functional difference under the rules, but I'm hoping it will look right. Also, there's something about an army that's all painted and based in the same way. Little Big Men do two different sets of red transfers and two white for 1st Corps, so that fits in nicely.

Thanks agin for the comments.

Paul

Blimey; all 4! I'm confident I'll manage 1 , might just manage 2. Could never do 4… I'm thinking all white shields, but with different transfers on each legion.

Cheers, Simon

They look great to me.

Very nice indeed!

I have several maniples (units) of 1st Corps Republican Romans. For some reason, I like these for post-Punic Wars Roman armies; for example, the more veteran armies such as the Scipios took to Asia. The 1st Corps Principes mix very well with the older Foundry Republican Romans (that I use for Hastati) and are some of my favorite figures. I use Gripping Beast kneel-ers for my Triarii. Like Allen I also have an army based on OG models too. The Old Glory Triarii and Velites are very good. I have rearmed my OG Principes, removing the pila, with spears to represent the Camillan Roman army with only the Hastati armed with pila.

So what rules are you using to model your Roman Legions?

Mike B

Paul, how many figures are in uoyr legions? Thanks, Mike Adams

The rules are Tactica II, for which our lot in Glasgow has been a playtest group – due out in the next few months, I believe. Anyway, the rules model the Republican Romans by making broken units irrelevant to army morale until the third line is breached. This is different from standard units, which count as soon as they are destroyed; in effect, you don't include any losses from Hastati or Principes until the Triarii go as well, at which point the whole lot counts. You have to be deployed in supporting lines for this to work, so the rules reward a historically-based deployment. Having said that, since the individual lines are tough, the down side is that the points cost virtually forces the Romans into buying crud Equites and anything else they can get to try to stop anyone grinding their flanks – which sounds familiar…

Anyway, we have been experimenting with several variations to reduce the points cost of the legions and enable more viable supporting toops to be purchased, for example, reasonable quality Italian allies, as distinct from socii.

For Zama, each legion will have 12 Velites; 24 Hastati; 48 Principes and 24 Triarii. I know that the proportions of Velites and Hastati are too low, but four legions plus the support makes a massively powerful force, and we wanted to scale them down a bit. Also, there's the small matter of what can realistically be painted in time. This applies to both sides: if we increased the Velites and Hastati numbers, we'd have to do the same for the Carthaginians, which has a knock-on effect on everyone else who is contributing to the game. Even so, four legions of 108 figures each is going to be a bit of a task…

But then I will have them, and they can be used again for other legions in the Republican periods. Mike B makes a really good point about the Camillan Romans with the spear-armed Principes; I'm kind of hoping to be able to fudge it a bit so that I can use the same figures for the earlier period. The same goes for the post-Punic legions, which we can represent in Tactica II by something that is beginning to approach the cohort-based legion of Marius and his successors.

Sorry for going on at length!

Cheers, and thanks again for the support – it's extremely welcome, and highly appreciated.

Paul

For Zama, each legion will have 12 Velites; 24 Hastati; 48 Principes and 24 Triarii

……… Why not do:

12 Velites
24 Hastati
24 Principes
12 Triarii

per Legion??

Mike B

Anyone ever come up with that reference, possibly from Adrian Goldsworthy, that there was a higher percentage of principes than normal at Zama? I didn't…

Mike has the correct proportions for that timeframe, 'cept that there would be 24 x velites as well. Whether those proportions work under various game systems is another issue.

Allen

Hi Mike, the reason for the larger legions is pure and simple figures megalomania. That and the look of the thing. The numbers you give were pretty our starting point, but then we realised that we wanted a really big game for public display. If we stuck with those numbers and we wanted the Triarii to cover the entire rear of the legion in shallow formation, it would give us a frontage of only 7 inches per legion, so we came up with a way to make the legion larger… I know, more fool us, since it's a lot more work. The reason for the proportions is to try to make the various lines work under the rules we are using, while trying to give the three lines different flavours; it's all subjective, of course.

I've asked for my Goldsworthy books back, but the guy who has them seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.

Back to painting…

Paul

Paul, the rules we use are Tactica also, but it is from ten years ago! Where can you get the new rules to playtest them? Any help please! Mike Adams

Hi Mike, there is a Tactica Yahoo group that has some info on the new edition:

link

It would be worth posting a message to ask if it's possible to get hold of a playtest set; Arty Conliffe is usually very good at responding to queries.

These are definitely a new set of rules. The single biggest change is a basic points system and army lists with a range of troop types within specified percentages. This greatly widens the range of possible match-ups and army variations compared with the original game. Command & control is also less restricted, although there are still limitations on what you can do.

Good luck
Paul

I owned a copy of the original Tactica when it first came out. Very interesting ideas but at the time I was more into the tourney-oriented sets that allowed commanders much more flexibility in deployment and manuever. Now that I'm older and my tastes have changed, I'm going to look at Tactica again and see what version 2 has to offer.

Thanks for posting the link.

Bart

Hi Bart – forgot to add that the initial set-up in manoeuvre columns has also been removed. That makes another big change from the first edition…

Paul