"Advice for fielding Venetians in Great Italian Wars" Topic

Hi there.

Im entering an Impetus Italian Wars 15mm campaign and Ive drawn the Venetians. I read through a 15mm Great Italian Wars topic TMP link which was helpful in deciding miniature ranges.

Ive checked out Venexia and Mirlton and think they are great. Im not a student of this era and have tried googling for answers but Id like to ask a few questions.

Heavy Cav. Are the Gendarmes OK to use for Italian Heavy Cav, or were they more a French or Imperial thing? I was thinking perhaps the Italian Men at Arms from Mirlton's condottieri range, or even the 'Knights in Italian style armour' from their Burgundian range…too old? If the Gendarmes are OK, armored or unarmored?

Are the 'Cavallie Leggeri' represented differently to the 'Men at Arms' heavy Cav?

Turks. Venetians can take a unit of 'Turks' with Bows. Would the Turkoploes from Mirlton range be ok?

Pike Squares. 2 Varieties. Provvisionati and Cernite Squares. I guess they could both be represnted by Italian Pikemen. Do I avoid the Swiss/Landsknecht looking figures?

Foot Mercenaries. Options for Heavy and Light Foot, would they be Italian Halberdiers or something similar, or even Mercs from Venetian domains elsewhere? (Dalmatian/Turk?)

Lastly, colour scheme. I read Venetians wore Red and White Stripes. Is that just the Italian Foot Infantry or just certain units?

Appreciate your help

Steve

One thing to keep in mind – appearance did change with time, however if you are looking at say 1510-1525.

"Are the Gendarmes OK to use for Italian Heavy Cav"

Yes. Italy was in the forefront of the development of armour; many of those French Gensdarmes would have been wearing Milanese armour.

"Are the 'Cavallie Leggeri' represented differently to the 'Men at Arms' heavy Cav?"

I do not know impetus, but if they are lancers and you go with Venexia use these guys (the "lesser gendarmes")

picture

"Do I avoid the Swiss/Landsknecht looking figures?"

Another way in which military fashion varied with time. Venexia Landsknecht are very "1525", their Swiss are a bit more subdued. For 1515 +/5 I would mix but tend toward the "generic"

picture

"Venetians wore Red and White Stripes"

News to me, but that does not make it wrong. This period is pre-uniform, so don't overdo anything like that. Still, a striped sleeve here, a striped trouser leg there, can make a nice unifying theme. I generally think "motorcycle gang" when doing 16th century infantry.

YMMV btw, but I find the Mirliton infantry from the Condottieri range noticeably smaller than the Venexia. The riders on the Burgundian cavalry are size compatible, but the horses are quite a bit shorter (back to front, same height above ground).

I don't know about the other options, but for bow light cavalry I would be more inclined to stradiots than turcopoles. Very classic Venetian troop type.

"Im entering an Impetus Italian Wars 15mm campaign and Ive drawn the Venetians"

And congratulations on both points.

Take a look at the army lists for the quantities and troop types. Yuo should have some options from that.

Usually, no matter what army, only a portion of the horses would have plate armor – off the top of my head, a guess at 25% – 33%, the rest of the cav might have fabric trappings, or none at all.

I have seen a lot of Venetian armies shown with troops using the red and white theme, and the same scheme on their pavises, e.g. quartered for the clothing of the troops, and half a panel of white, and half red for shields and pavises.

Alternatively, some of the designs would be red and white – can't recall which, but either a white on red background, or vice versa.

Take a look on the internet for free flags and banners, which you can use, if desired, for the shields and pavises.

If I recall correctly, the Venetians were some of the most up to date, as far as guns go, but depending upon the period you choose to game, there might be a mix of crossbowmen/regular bowmen, and arquebusiers.

The Swiss fought for, and against almost everyone at some point during the Italian Wars, so you can include them, or not, at your discretion.

Appreciate your help Lentulus and Top Gun Ace.

Doesnt sound like mixing Infantry from both compaines will work too well. Hmm… Might just stick to Venexia for starters then.

Thanks for the advice on the Heavy Cav. Will stick with Gendarmes and mix unarmored and armored together. Was the barding on Italian Men at Arms of varying colors too, or did they use City colours?

Were Halberdiers still running around in Italian Wars period? They seem to be included in the Venexia range (along with Pikemen) and its my only guess for what Heavy Foot option might be in the army list…

Yeah Impetus should be a fun system for this period, though Ive only played Ancients with it so far, and enjoyed it a lot.

Thanks.

If you stick to Venexia miniatures the Cavalli Leggeri are your lesser Gendarmes, unbarded heavy cav.

GI05 Lesser Gendarmes, lance upright, unbarded horses (4 mounted figures)

picture

Turks with bows

OT 07 Light cavalry (1400-1700)

picture

Provvisionati and Cernite Squares are just generic infantry, pike, arquebusiers.

Halberdiers (i.e, entire units armed with polearms, as opposed to a 'Forlon Hope' as part of a Pike formation) were still around in the Italian Wars, probably more in Italy than elsewhere. They would be most typical of Civic militia types. The Italian City States didn't have much luck with native pikemen, the destruction of the Venetian "Romandiole" pikes at Agnadello 400 years ago this year putting an end by such attempts by Venice. The Florentine attempt, although much praised by Machiavelli, didn't work out much better. Italian states therefore usually hired mercenary pikes. On the other hand, the Italians, along with the Spanish, were leaders in the development and employment of hand firearms on the battlefield.

"barding on Italian Men at Arms of varying colors too"

Personal property, so probably family colours. I generally go for a wide mix. There also paintings showing plain steel without the coloured coverings.

I am not a great fan of army lists as a substitute for research, but since the DBR army list (book I) is at hand here, they offer:

(1) for mercenary infantry, arquebus, crossbow and interestingly sword and buckler. The venexia sword and buckler perhaps mixed with some armoured (generic) halberd might server well for heavy infantry. Note the venexia halberd are shipped the same length as pikes, but should be shortened. They are shipped separate from the figure, so it is not hard.

(2) The DBR lists allow Romandiole pike from 1506 to 1509. Quote:
"Mercenary Italian pikemen from Romagna dressed in a distinctive uniform of red slashed with white…" I believe they are referring to a painting of the battle of Agnadello.

Stradiots would be good – for 'Turk' you could use Hungarian – probably anything from Illyria really.

" The Italian City States didn't have much luck with native pikemen, the destruction of the Venetian "Romandiole" pikes at Agnadello 400 years ago this year putting an end by such attempts by Venice."

You should ignore this, there is very little evidence to say that they were wiped out, or they were even there (although the pikes they had there were defeated). The Venetians continued to employ and equip pikemen throughout the sixteenth century. The above statement comes from the DBR army lists, a publication notorious for it's misreading of history books. (which also has the year of the battle completely wrong)

The advice you have received is pretty good so far. Check out some pictures of Italian re-enactors on the web for period pikemen.
Red and white were the colours proscribed for the Venetian Provisionati in the late fifteenth century, so likely to be the same in the sixteenth. But no uniforms.

I use the Mirliton Condottierre range for my 28mm Venetians in the Italian wars. A bit early, but they look great. If you want to read something relevant about the army, try "The Military Organization of a Renaissance State" by Michael Mallett and John Hale. Good read.

Appreciate all the help from poster's above. Ill take all that advice and put something together this week.

As for red and White colours, are we only talking about the 'Provisionati', or would be be OK to use that scheme for all troops (not including Gendarmes). Striped, quartered or mix?

Thanks

well, red and white was very popular also among the "Cernite" (town militias) as white and red are very popular colours for many Italian towns (for example Padoa, Vicenza and Treviso to name 3 of them). Still don't think that many Cernite had actually a true uniform.

I agree that the Venexia figures are excellent and will make a fine army but, Roundway also has a good range of Venetian figures that should mix well. They make a Venetian infantryman with a shield and halberd that is based on one seen in a Renaissance painting.

I translated the following from a passage in a book dealing with arms and armor of the Italians in the 15th and 16th Centuries:

Usually the uniform clothing given to the infantry is the stockings; interesting with this regard is the news of Bonifacio in which he reports that in 1509 the Senate of the Republic of Venice ordered the Cernite (militia), and in particular that of the Trevigiano, a thousand soldiers dressed in the cloth of the towns: vermilion and white, and wore the livery of the governor general of men at arms of the republic, Count Bartolomeo Liviani d'Alviano. [note: I believe that the livery was a rearing horse]

Red and white, bearing the livery of the governor general of the men at arms for most militia would probably be fine.

As far as "lesser gendarmes", while they undoubtedly were employed as part of the gendarme's lance, Venetians developed a separate "light cavalry" type (other than Stradiots, etc.) that wore a Saione (sajone) and hose, as well as a mix of open and closed helmets. The lance was not similar to that of the Gendarmes, but was more like a light lance. Here's a picture of a Venetian knight with a light cavalryman in the background:

link

Roundway also has a good range of Venetian figures that should mix well. They make a Venetian infantryman with a shield and halberd that is based on one seen in a Renaissance painting.

The St. Ursala Cycle by Carpaccio, which depicts many different Venetian troops from the late 15th Century, so it probably would basically hold true (as far as appearance) a few years into the 16th century (for the most part):

link

I'd also stay away from stripes on the clothing. As depicted in the St. Ursala Cycle painting (see above), stripes really weren't the "fashion." More like alternating colors on "pant legs", etc. Take a close look at the painting referenced above. Also note the fancy pattern on the pant leg of the soldier standing with the shield and warhammer. That would be more typical.

It is also correct that the Venetians were quite "advanced" with equipping their militia with firearms. The Venetian senate ordered (in the 1470s I think) that all militia should train in the use of firearms, or raise a certain number (around 25% by the 1490's). That is not to say that the army should be a mix of 25% arquebus and 75% crossbows, but of all mitilia, 25% carried arquebus, and others might be armed with melee weapons, etc., etc., etc.

I second Phillius' book recommendation, and would add Mercenaries and their Masters by Michael Mallett to the list. Covers up to the end of the 15th century, but gives a great overview of recruitment, tactics, etc.

Wow…. great advice and links, appreciated.

Re using persoanl oclors I would avoid this as it has always been my understanding that the various Italian States, put the state above any personal display and outlawed personal colors except in a very few instances. There are few really good sources of Italian horse armor color, but all seem to be similar. More geometric designs, with stylized stars or sun designs. The one that comes to mind shows no two the same, and color combinations of red, black and white being predominate. This seems to be the source for the knigth in the Osprey book on the Itlaians 1300-1500.

Gush gives the impression that the knghts on armored horses may have been brigaded separately from the "Light Horse", or knights on unarmored horses, but I don't know how absolute that is. I did mount my as separate type elements, but I play DBA and it works fine for me.

Love the Ventians, a really cool army!

Terry

Terry-

If you are referring to the "livery of the captain general", then I would beg to differ. The source I cited above is a passage from an eyewitness account from an Italian text. I would trust it even above the lofty Gush.

There are a number of paintings from this period in which barded knights and non-barded knights were brigaded separately. As for uniform colors, I looked at a number of websites for Italian re-enactors for this period. They didn't show any uniform types but they were not specifically Venetians. I suppose you can have different units being supported by different communes within the Venetian empire. These units could be wearing the colors of the commune supporting them.

As for flags, I recommend, obviously, the Venetian flag but also flags from communes under the control of Venice for the infantry. The cavalry units could have a flag made up of the Noble in charge of that unit. Often we don't have that information. D'Alviano we know had a unit of gendarmes. In those cases, find the heraldry of a Venetian noble, make a flag from that heraldry and assign it a gendarme unit.

Rich

Well, there you have it. 17 responses and 17 different opinions! Now we just have to wait on Rocky to offer the 18th opinion. Rocky? (Where's Rocky?)

Hi

Just enjoying the chaos. By now, the few of us obsessed with the period have all expressed what we get from our research. Why repeat and then end up in the same fights one more time?

Rocky

Why repeat and then end up in the same fights one more time?

'cause it's fun.