"Are time travel and alternate universes lame writing?" Topic

You can always tell when a sci fi TV series jumps the shark. It introduces time travel or alternate universes. 9 times out of 10, it is nothing but a crutch for lazy writers.

Having done my trollish post of the day, I will now sit back and refuse to defend myself.

Oh, and keeping Important Characters in the hard drive of the transporter is lame too.
Not to mention keeping a spare Data in the closet, just in case.

Yup. Totally lame writers. Alt Dimensions really annoy me. Time Travel, not so much, as long as its an important plot line…

I have always thought that the way in which time travel is often used is lazy. I am not a fan of time travel to begin with but what bugs me the most about it is the very thing you mention.

I think that if an author/writer uses time travel right it can be quite effective and fun, even though I'm not really a fan.

Alternate universes aren't so bad as long as they are used sparingly. When they become overused is when I have a problem. Sometimes it's just pandering to audiences such as how just about every Star Trek series has made sure to show you the "mirror universe" versions of their characters.

Speaking of ST, I personally felt that the Borg were used as a crutch. Run out of interesting alien encounters? Throw out the Borg. Ooooo..scary, the Borg.

Troll accepted and added to

Have a good day JTOFM,

-Eli

Except in the case of Dark Shadows. That old Gothic soap opera knew how to use those tricks like nobody else.

Oh, and the Buffy Universe where Buffy never came to Sunnyvale. The alt-evil Willow was pretty cool.

I happen to like both alternative universes and time travel. I particularly like the way they can throw a different light on what events/characters in the "original." Sure there are some poor plot episodes, but these are endemic anyway in such series. I hate the touchy feely relationship stuff and character development stuff which is similarly gratuitously written. I shouldnt notice that stuff if its well written! it should just creep up onme, but no, what you gfet is X actors show, to demonstrate they are a "real" actor. yuk!

I just saw Primer and enjoyed that very much.

Alternate universes aren't so bad as long as they are used sparingly. When they become overused is when I have a problem.

Like when Star Gate SG1 had 17 (iirc) alternate universes' SG1 teams showing up at the SGC? Actually, Star Gate pokes fun at itself and the genre more often than not by going over the top with its alternate universes and time travel plot devices; which of course makes it fun and funny….

I'll bet there is an SG1 Team right now trying to prevent the meeting of John's parents. :)

Book writers who set out with a plan to do a sensible and interesting alternate universe or time travel story can do great work.

TV writers have trouble getting anywhere with anything more complex than boy meets girl, and in SF generally screw that up as well.

The time travel thing in Babylon 5 was quite well done, IMHO, YMMV.

I just saw the newest star trek movie and although I enjoyed it just fine I think alternative universes and time travel are the reasons I never really got into the series. Going back in time time to save the whales? Really? It just makes any conflict in the story feel really flat whenever somone can just slip back in time and fix any problems/deaths that may occur.

What about series like Sliders and Quantum Leap where the idea of Time Travel and Alternate Demensions is the premise of the series? Does that make them lazy?

I like the "Alternate Universe" crutch when it is a blatant and obvious ploy to put an actress who has a prudish "take me seriously" role into skimpy outfits and an ultimate vixen persona.

/sarcasm off

(..but not really )

Mostly a crutch but there are good books out there that have innpovative and unexpected plots.

Time Travel
Dean Koontz – Lightning
Glen Cook – Matter of Time

Alternate Dimensions
Roger Zelaney – Amber Series

Time travel is easy it's just hard to change the speed or direction.

As a writer, myself, I insist on rock-solid plot lines and I have little patience with writers who don't do likewise. That having been said, however, I can scarcely imagine the pressure put on the writers for TV series or movies. Trying to juggle all the demands and deadlines and still write a decent story must be a real challenge. Falling back on time-travel or alternate universe stories must be a real temptation. Sometimes they turn out well and sometimes not.

I thought the Holodeck in Next Generation was the worst. (However much I wanted one in the spare bedroom.)

Depends on how it is executed. M-theory suggests that "alternate universes" could exist, depending on what dimension you travel through (IIRC alternate universes would be 6th and 7th dimensions, as opposed to alternate timelines which would be 5th dimension). However, most of the time (especially with regards to JJ Trek) it is a conciet to cover bad writing.

Damon.

Oh, and the Buffy Universe where Buffy never came to Sunnyvale. The alt-evil Willow was pretty cool.

Admit it, you mean pretty frickin' hot.

Ever wonder why the side kick chick is often 'hotter' then the main chick? Betty is hotter then Wilma. Mary Ann is hotter then Ginger. Gabrielle is hotter then Xena. Michelle is hotter then Vicky (American Pie). Dana is hotter then Cherrel (According to Jim).

These, by the way, are indisputable facts. Any dissent is simple trolling.

Time Travel has a lot of potential, but I've rarely seen it used well.

I don't mind the occasional alternative universe story, Spock with a goatee is a classic moment of television!

-Will

I wil lsay pretty frickin' hot to the alt Willow.

Yes, the mirror universe Treks are generally the some of the better Trek episodes. In general, I do not like it when time travel or the alt. universe is used to solve a plot point, but I like them when used solely for settings and back story.

Trek has the worst possible time traveling.

Interesting look at it on (of all places) ESPN: link

scroll down until you see New Kirk

Edit: I do love Star Trek, though

Problem with most time travel stories is they go backwards instead of forwards (like the H.G. Wells masterpiece, which did it right). And talk about royal messes, re: alternative universes, how about the multiple universe concept of the DC Universe, and those crisis stories that keep blowing everything up (I admit to liking the early crisis yarns of Gardner Fox, but geez guys, it really spun out of control thereafter).

So if a science fiction TV series jumps the shark by introducing time travel… then did Doctor Who jump it from the very first episode???

However, more often a series uses time travel and alternative universes as an excuse for a "return to factory settings" episode. All sorts of exciting stuff can happen within the boundaries of the episode (e.g. ships and planets blow up, characters die or turn to the dark side of the force), but all will be reset back to the status quo by the time the end credits roll.

This thread has exploded.

Most writers are too lazy or too stupid to make time travel work right, then never think of what the effects will mean in future episodes.

I think within science fiction novels, time travel can be interesting. Some movies can even make a good story out of it.

Episodic television, however, rarely turns it into anything worth watching.

B5 did ok. A few Outer Limits episodes. But not much else comes to mind.

Alternate Universes on the other hand are just always bad.

Alternate Universes on the other hand are just always bad.

Have you seen vampire Willow?

I like a good "Alternate" story. And I agree that those were some of the more enjoyable Treks.
I have only in the last year or so discovered Turtledove's loads of books on "what if's".
What If time travel was possible?
What If dimension travel was possible?
What If events turned out different?

"… make time travel work right, then never think of what the effects will mean in future episodes."

Can either of these be done; work right or the consideration of future (or current or past) effects?

All you guys missed the boat…the OFM said he refused to defend himself – and no one – NO ONE – took a cheap shot at him…you guys are getting lazy…

"I just saw Primer and enjoyed that very much."

We had to download a map of that film off of the interwebs and then watch it again. Twice…

With further posts I should amend my statement by saying a TT or alt universe episode/series is a lazy conceit if that is not the main theme of the show. Thus Doctor Who would be OK, because the main theme of the show is time travel. But in Star Trek it's a lazy conceit.

I will say that the "Mirror" Trek episodes wouldn't count, because they don't effectively hit the 'reset" button. But new trek does.

Damon.

I have to agree with the OFM.

I don't actually agree with him, I just have to, as he's behind me with a gun to my head.

Yep.

H. Beam Piper did it best. Infinite parallel dimensions all patrolled by the benevolent overlords of the Para-temporal police. Its even the basis for Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen.

Still have a weak spot for TOS NCC-1701 visiting the 1960's Earth be it as the result of an accident, or intentional recon mission. And what's not to love about 'mirror' Spock?

Stargate's had some good time travel stories too.

I don't like time travel as its use is always based on the faulty assumption that if you go back and change something you return to your own time and find the change is in effect when the latest theory is that all will be as it was, and the only way to see the change is to go to an alternate universe which your sticking your nose in where it didn't belong created. This is why I prefer SF modelling, gaming and art because so much SF media treats me like a semiliterate bum who's taken one too many wrecking balls to the head and is dying from alcohol poisoning.
Time travel would be ok if the characters simply travel around and have adventures in time and space, Doctor Who style, and not go off changing the course of history and having to live with the changes. 8 Days was total garbage from conception to execution.
Alternate universes should only be used when they are integral to the overall story, not just for one episode. Eg. Rifts.
What really smegs me off? The Fantastic Voyage cr@p, our hero and heroine waking up in bed halfway through a movie when they've only just met in the first half hour, and steady streams of villains who commit atrocities and then try to convince everyone that "Yeah, I did it but it's really your fault". Admittedly without that bit shows like Criminal minds wouldn't have got past the first episode, but…
On that note, most programmes dealing with forensics are total bunk. Had to be typed.

I usually shy away from time travel/alternate dimension themes in sci fi. They almost always seem to ignore obvious ramifications and seem to become routine plot devices, especially in *ahem* certain well-known TV serials. I can only think of one or two novels in which I could buy into the way it was used.

Jason

I think the coolest time travel program in the last year is the now sadly departed "Life on Mars". It was time travel I could really relate to, as I am old enough to get all the 70's references. Great cast…no wonder it got canned.

Sometimes.

It's probably more accurate to say that TV writing is usually crap, or that 90% of everything is crap.
-Kle.

Check out The Onion's website this week. There is a hilarious article on a very lazy SF writer and his "Quantum Flux" plot device which can be used for everything :)

@ADub74
Can it be done?
Well I think the Back to the Future movies handled it rather well. Events in the past had an effect on the outcome of the future. Although if you want to go that far Marty McFly might not turn out to be the Marty McFly as his mom and dad didn't get together the same way they originally did.

Babylon 5's time travel was kind of a cheat, but at least they kept it to a small event. So it changed very little of the outcome.

I'll give Dr. Who a pass as he never seems to visit the same era. Or rather he's acting as the force of change where he is.

Star Trek is the series that has abused the time travel events. The last movie relaunch just made a change that should have repercussions on all Star Trek series after wards. But now because of this some of those things might not happen now because things have changed. If you follow the last movie, Spock and Kirk can no longer go to Vulcan for Spock's Pon Far ritual, T'pring or T'pau might be dead now. Neither can they bring a regenerated Spock there after planet Genesis and such.
Now that's bad writing.

Well, as I understood the recent Star Trek movie (IF I understood it!) when things got changed in the past, they didn't obliterate the future that we saw in all the TV series. Rather, it created an alternate reality that is separate and distinct from the original. So, while Vulcan and T'Pau might have been destroyed in this new, alternate universe, everything still goes as we remember in the original. It was still poorly written--but for different reasons! :)

"Are time travel and alternate universes lame writing?"

No.

"Are they common tools of lame writers?"

Yes, but not all lame writers use them.

"Are they common tools of good writers?"

Used to be. Not so much any more.

…

Now, replace "time travel and alternate universes" with one or more of the following:

"thinly veiled references to the current chief executive"

"thinly veiled references to real world religious/ethnic/political conflict"

"sterotypical views of an ethnic group"

"fringe political views"

"popular political views"

"wierd science"

"alarmist anti-science"

"well established science"

"manifest destiny of humanity"

"sex scenes"

"gun porn"

"militant vegetarianism/conservation/resource exploitation"

"White Man's Burden"

The correlation of story element to the consistency of the answers is left as an exercise for the viewer/reader.

I thoughtthe episode that had Worf returning from a contest and splitting off into the various Alt Univ was pretty interesting. The theory that each decision we make creates and alt universe of the opposite descision makes me think that somewhere there is a hugely successful ME out there making lots of cash and living large while I wallow in pitiful mediocrity.

Wow, now I'm depresed.

So since I didn't just blow my brains out, somewhere in an alt univ a ME just did. Glad I didn't do it.

I tend to just "leave it there" when time travel gets introduced. I am a great believer in "time travel spoils a good film/story" because there is always the worry that what you have watched, can be undone with the push of a button… so all credibility is lost.

I thought the Avengers Infinity Wars was great but was ultimately ruined by the time travelling aspects… and now the Multiverse has been opened, I have lost almost all interest in the franchise…

Is it lazy writing or un-talented writers, trying to make it more interesting with "special twists"? Who knows? It's a real switch off though.