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"Early War British armo(u)red cars" Topic


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Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 Aug 2009 6:50 a.m. PST

I am looking for some British armoured cars, so I can go swanning about kicking the Jerries and Eyeties for six in the desert.
From Bengazi Handicap, I "need" some Morris and QRF armoured cars.
I actually did some research, and see that QRF carries both, and Extra Crispy carries them in the USA. How are QRF? I don't have any (yet).
Does anyone else make these cars?

aecurtis Fezian14 Aug 2009 7:42 a.m. PST

'From Bengazi Handicap, I "need" some Morris and QRF armoured cars.'

Would you care to try that again?

I am not answering quality questions this morning, for fear of offending anyone.

See Leadgend's list.

Allen

aecurtis Fezian14 Aug 2009 8:01 a.m. PST

Well, the site Leadgend frequently refers to with comprehensive lists of available 15mm WWII *seems* to be down.

At one time, Stronghold had two Morris variants and a Western Desert Rolls in their catalogue, but apparently not yet released. No idea if you can get them now.

Allen

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:06 a.m. PST

The QRF Morris is an excellent model. I have one with my British. The QRF model of the Rolls Royce with modified open top turret is one I provided a master for.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:09 a.m. PST

Hey…OFM. For the early part of the desert war you need some early artillery as well. QRF have models I made masters for. The 18pdr, the Italian 149mm. The British WW1 20cwt 6"Howitzer. In the WW1 section they also have an 8"Howitzer. Its the one with the striped camouflage colour photograph labelling it as the 6". There are also the older type Italian 75mm guns. There were far more of them in service than the modernized one most companies provide.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:11 a.m. PST

Ohhh….and BTW. For the early desert war a lot of the British units still had 4.5"howitzers. There is one in the QRF range from my masters. The WW1 version only needs to have tyres added instead of horse tow wheels.

aecurtis Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:24 a.m. PST

Very well. I will post photos of unassembled kits shortly, and you can make up your own minds.

Allen

dragon614 Aug 2009 1:06 p.m. PST

Who is Leadgend? And why do I want his list?

aecurtis Fezian14 Aug 2009 1:49 p.m. PST

OK, here we go--the trials and tribulations of collecting 15mm armored cars for the Cherrybums:

(I'm not going to waste anyone's time with dimensions and whether or not models are to 1:100 scale. That way lies madness.)

First, as a benchmark, Battlefront's Marmon-Herrington:

picture

Pros:

- Crisp, detailed resin body
- Well-shaped wheels
- Bad models are quickly and cheerfully replaced
- BF includes crewman torsos (not shown)

Cons:

- Undercuts on the resin body guarantee that a large proportion will not make it out of the mold without the sand channels or the bucket on the righ-hand running board being broken. Unfortunately, BF quality control does not spot this. Fortunately, BF customer service will replace them with entire models. This is how it is possible to obtain 16 good kits, with 6 bad bodies and 22 sets of metal bits (these have a function; see below). You can probably figure out how I know this.

- The turret is sculpted almost full of metal. This is fine if you just pop on the closed hatches. But open, even with a crewman torso in place, all you can do is paint a black pool and hope no-one notices.

- Only a fair representation of a Boys/Boyes/Boy-eez AT rifle and Vickers.

- A noticeable mold line is on the turret, but it can be filed flat, section by section, with care.

- An Italian 47mm AT gun is provided, to allow the turret to be removed and the more powerful wepon fitted. This is probably a minority among the types of weapons fitted to M-Hs.

Next, the QRF basic Morris:

picture

(n.b.: QRF calls this a "Marmon Herrington Breda Car 4.7cm". There is neither a Breda nor a 4.7cm associated with it.)

Pros:

- The kit includes a gem of a Boys AT rifle.

Cons:

- The kit is crudely sculpted, with no flat surface consistently flat or curved surface consistently curved. Note the prominent mold lines on the body and turret: almost impossible to fix.

- The chassis is done as a large separate piece. Because of its alignment in the mold, the wheels are compressed and out of round. The wheels are also small, making the assembled model look very odd, like a low-rider. Using extra Battlefront M-H wheels--a benefit of BF's poor quality control and good customer service--makes the vehicle look better. Not right, as the M-H wheels aren't the right pattern; and not easy, as the M-H wheels have to have their mounting lugs removed, and axle holes drilled and brass axles fitted; but better.

- The turret is open and hard to fill. The Vickers, that doesn't look anything like a Vickers on the outside, has no operating mechanism on the inside. No crew is provided. All you can do is add spare Battlefront crew and bits of kit and try to fill up the space.

- In toto, a lot of work is required to get this model up to standard.

Now the QRF Morris mounting a captured weapon:

picture

Pros:

- If this kit included that gem of a Boys, there would be a "Pro". It doesn't.

Cons:

- The kit is crudely sculpted and cast, if possible, even more so that the other Morris. Notice the rough bumps on supposedly flat armor surfaces. The weapon pedestal in the center of the vehicle is incompletely cast (on both models I have); I guess the caster just doesn't notice and hopes the punters won't either.

- With a different design, the wheels are on separate axles. They are still compressed due to the mold and are out of round. Fortunately, Battlefront screwed up enough times to cover these two, too. With extra work.

- The weapon provided is the more commonly used Breda 20mm AA gun, but it is a weak and weedy thing compared to Battlefront's model of the same weapon. The gunshield has lots of flash and extra metal.

- The crewman provided is probably at the low end of 15mm WWII figure quality: indistinguishable detail.

The low point of the armored cars is the QRF Rolls:

picture

Pros:

- Gem of a Boys

Cons:

- Appalling sculpting and casting quality. What the Morrises exhibit to a lesser degree, the Rolls has in spades. Some of the flat surfaces look like they were shaped with a trowel, but I'be seen masons do a neater job. I'm sparing you a rear view.

- The turret is the same as the Morris, and some of the real ones were; it probably makes sense to go with a common component. As you can see (also in a lesser degree on the Morris photo), there's a tendency for weak spots where the walls meet the floor. Same problems with the Vickers (or lack of) and lack of interior detail.

- The worst part is trying to fit the wheels (which at least this time are in round, but the front ones have mold lines that are hard to remove). There is so much extra metal under the front wheel wells that it is simply impossible to fit the front wheel set in its proper place underneath. See the underside shot for a clearer view:

picture

There is no notch for the front axle as there is for the rear axle. This will take considerable grinding to remove the metal from under the fenders, and then drilling and fitting the wheel sets with brass axles so the whole thing won't collapse.

I have raised the problem with the Rolls numerous times with Geoff. He says they were sculpted this way, and that many people are able to assemble them. I maintain that it is impossible without major reconstruction. Geoff has said repeatedly that he plans to remaster and remould these. I'm still waiting, with eight Rolls that I just don't feel the need to put the effort into repairing.

Caveat emptor.

If Battlefront or anyone able to make sharp crip castings of accurate, well-made masters ever produces Morrises and Rolls, I will try again. I would cheerfully pay BF's $11.00 USD (or $18.00 USD for two, as with BF's Marmon-Herringtons) over 4 pounds 50 worth of lower quality.

Allen

The Jim Jones Cocktail Hour14 Aug 2009 2:23 p.m. PST

How about the Minifigs Rolls Royce hull with change of wheels and turret? Expensive but if my memory serves me the old Minifigs RR was fairly crisply sculpted and went together without many dramas. And yes I know they were Fordson chassis but it's 15mm for God's sake.

aecurtis Fezian14 Aug 2009 2:31 p.m. PST

It would be easier indeed to modify the Minifigs Rolls to the ones refitted with Fordson chassis. You wouldn't have to replace the turret, simply modify it--and come up with some wheels:

link

Allen

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP14 Aug 2009 6:05 p.m. PST

MUCH more than I asked for, and for which I give many thanks.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:02 p.m. PST

(n.b.: QRF calls this a "Marmon Herrington Breda Car 4.7cm". There is neither a Breda nor a 4.7cm associated with it.)

That is an error of labelling. It should be a Morris. The inconsistency of surfaces is because it was like that. Angles ran off in all directions to deflect bullets.
The turret is bad, I admit that. But I did a new one for it a couple of years ago. I dont know what happened to it. I did not make the master, but again I pointed out a couple of years ago, that with larger wheels it looks much better.

I have one in my desert army, modified as I thought it should be, and it looks great.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:06 p.m. PST

The kit is crudely sculpted and cast, if possible, even more so that the other Morris.

That is because its really an early model Marmon Harrington mislabelled! I didnt make the master, but I did make a replacement 4.7 cm weapon some time ago. I dont know why its not issued with the model.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:07 p.m. PST

I did not make the Rolls Royce, but I did suggest the turret from a Morris be supplied as an alternative, because that was how most got one!
As stated, I made a new gun and turret. I dont know what happened to it.

Mal Wright Fezian14 Aug 2009 11:12 p.m. PST

Allen. Something you missed with the Battlefront Marmon Harrington is that it is the late version hull. The one used for much of the desert war had a sloped rear hull exactly as the QRF one supplied and a rather silly, small turret, just as they supply.
The Battlefront one is an excellent model, I have several. But if fighting the early desert war, its the wrong armoured car. The only correct early one is the QRF.

Dont get me wrong. Some of the QRF models are not the best that could be done. But they are usually correct in detail for date. However the mislabelling of some on their site can cause confusion.

aecurtis Fezian15 Aug 2009 12:09 a.m. PST

"The inconsistency of surfaces is because it was like that. Angles ran off in all directions to deflect bullets."

I'm not talking about the faceting. What should be flat surfaces are rough and, for want of a better word, "lumpy". You can see that in the photo.

Yes, I know what the Morris *should* becalled! And yes, I know the BF M-H is the later model. I don't have a QRF M-H Mk II (I reached the "Fool me once…" point before getting any). But it's an example of what a truck-based desert armored car *can* look like, when well done. If you don't get out the measuring tools…

Allen

raylev315 Aug 2009 3:09 a.m. PST

This was a great discussion! …professional and covered all the pros and cons -- seriously apprecite the incites from Al and Mal on this.

aecurtis Fezian15 Aug 2009 7:27 a.m. PST

(And after the TMP maintenance period cut me off last night…)

"That is because its really an early model Marmon Harrington mislabelled!"

Yes, absolutely. Not sure what the heck I was thinking.

Allen

Wg Cdr Luddite15 Aug 2009 5:18 p.m. PST

Yet again John your lack of command of the English language shows forth. The correct historical spelling is 'Ities'.

Neither did you specify your chosen scale.

But what else would we expect from someone who plays FOW?

Bloomin' ameteurs.

Mal Wright Fezian15 Aug 2009 10:28 p.m. PST

Oi!!!

You leave the OFM alone….you…you….!

If anyone is going to take the mickey out of him it'll be ME!!!
frown

aecurtis Fezian16 Aug 2009 2:06 p.m. PST

"Bloomin' ameteurs."

Qualifies as a TMP Speling and Grammer Facsist, though.

Moreover:

link

If it's on the Internet, it must be true.

Allen

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2009 3:49 p.m. PST

You see…
The problem with being a smart aleck and correcting people is that you look like an ass when the corrector is shown to be wrong.

People who aspire to the weighty title of "Grammer, and, speling Facscist™ (triple sic)" had better be prepared to withstand the peals of derisive laughter when you are shown to be wrong.

aecurtis Fezian16 Aug 2009 4:26 p.m. PST

I like triple sic in a margeurite.

Note that TMP Speling and Grammer Facsists differ over the more acceptable speling of "facsist".

Wg Cdr Luddite17 Aug 2009 9:16 a.m. PST

Wow! I can't believe that I know even more than the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th edition.

I need a bigger hat size.

Mal Wright Fezian24 Aug 2009 6:03 a.m. PST

Yes…yes….but has the OFM found what he needed???

Leadgend26 Aug 2009 11:36 p.m. PST

Where I was hosting my 15mm manufacturers file has closed and I haven't gotten around to hosting it elsewhere yet.

BF, QRF, SDD and Minfigs make early British armoured cars
BF makes a MHIII with "captured gun" option.
QRF makes the Morris AC9, Unmodified and modified Rolls Royce, MHII, MHII with 47mm gun and MHII with 20mm breda.
SDD makes a MHII.
Minifigs makes an unmodified Rolls Royce.

No-one makes a proper Fordson as per the pics Allen linked to or a Crossley.

There seems to be some confusion about the QRF models.
The BAC09 model has a crude 47mm gun with shield in an open topped hull with the same crew as the BAC10 model described by Allen above. For some reason the picture on the QRF site is of their BAC11 Morris AC9 armoured car.
Note that the BAC11 Morris and the BAC13 Rolls Royce have different turrets that just look very similar (they are not interchangable between models).
The QRF Morris, Modified Rolls Royce and MHII all have the Boys + Bren in the turret, the MHII also having a Vickers on an AA pintel; all exactly as expected.

Mal Wright Fezian27 Aug 2009 4:28 a.m. PST

Note that the BAC11 Morris and the BAC13 Rolls Royce have different turrets that just look very similar (they are not interchangable between models).

It seems that the workshops in Egypt got the idea for the Rolls Royce upgrade turret from the Morris. They built them in the workshort to fit the RR turret ring. That's why they look the same, but are not interchangeable.

On a model the difference would not be worth worrying about.

aecurtis Fezian27 Aug 2009 6:51 a.m. PST

"Where I was hosting my 15mm manufacturers file has closed and I haven't gotten around to hosting it elsewhere yet."

Ah. That explains why I couldn't find it recently. Please do bring it back up when you are able; it's a very valuable resource.

"Note that the BAC11 Morris and the BAC13 Rolls Royce have different turrets that just look very similar (they are not interchangable between models)."

I could have sworn they were, but I'm probably just confused again!

Allen

Leadgend27 Aug 2009 5:19 p.m. PST

<quote><quote>
Note that the BAC11 Morris and the BAC13 Rolls Royce have different turrets that just look very similar (they are not interchangable between models). </quote>

It seems that the workshops in Egypt got the idea for the Rolls Royce upgrade turret from the Morris. They built them in the workshort to fit the RR turret ring. That's why they look the same, but are not interchangeable.

On a model the difference would not be worth worrying about.
</quote>

I'm saying the model turrets are not the same, the main difference is in the "peg" underneath the turret that fits in a hole in the hull. They are different size pegs and holes thus making them incompatible with each other. The visible parts of the installed model turrets may have been intended to be identical… I'll have to take them out and have a detailed look to see if they are visibly different, any difference will be slight.

Mal Wright Fezian28 Aug 2009 3:49 p.m. PST

I'm saying the model turrets are not the same

The real ones were not either. The workshops in Egypt copied the factory built ones of the Morris, to upgrade the Rolls Royce armoured cars.

Leadgend07 Sep 2009 9:37 p.m. PST

I've had a look. The visible parts are identical on the QRF models.

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