"Starting out WWII wargaming.... should I go 15mm or 20mm?" Topic

I had posted a similar question in the DakkaDakka forums, but then realized that TMP would be a much better place to ask for opinions :)

There's practically nobody around where I live who play (or are even interested in) WWII wargaming, so one of the biggest pulls of FoW (popularity) doesn't come into consideration for me.

(BTW I live in this small peninsular beside China, called Korea. Population of 48 million, but less than a couple hundred miniature wargamers in the whole country)

I'm planning to build up a small (at least, small to start with) collection of German and Russian forces, that I can whip out and play a quick game when entertaining guests/friends.

With this objective in mind, I'm expecting each force to be around one or two platoons, with some armoured support.
I've also decided that NUTS! (from TwoHourWargames) would be a good ruleset to use for these kind of quick skirmishes.

And now comes the big question… should I use 15mm or 20mm miniatures?

Here is a summary of the pros and cons (IMHO) of each scale that I've learned over a weekend of research.

20mm Pros:
- Better detail (if you choose the right makers)
- Generally cheaper (unless you go for the more detailed metal or die-cast models)
- Mind-blowingly wide range of vehicles readily available
- Lots of inexpensive terrain and building kits available
- Good for both platoon-level and company-level games

20mm Cons:
- The level of detail on the cheaper infantry models is rather low
- Need to "mix and match" models from different makers
- Models tend to be too big for battalion-level games

15mm Pros:
- BattleFront provides a "one stop shop" for all your 15mm WWII wargaming needs
- The level of detail isn't all that bad, especially for vehicles
- Models are just the right size for large (company-level and higher) games

15mm Cons:
- Generally more expensive
- Level of detail is very low for infantry
- Small selection of terrain, and generally expensive
- Models are too small for platoon-level skirmish games

Do I have my facts straight?

Oh, and the biggest Pro for 20mm for me is that the local hobby shops carry a decent selection of models from Italeri, Revell and Dragon ranges.

On the other hand, all 15mm miniatures and the more exotic 20mm (e.g. AB Miniatures, FAA, etc) need to be imported, and the shipping costs tend to put a large dent in my wallet.

At least the good thing about FoW(Battlefront) miniatures is that Maelstrom (www.maelstrom.co.uk) carries them, and they offer free shipping worldwide.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome!

There is plenty of 15mm terrain out there and the 20s generally only suffer in detail on some of the old plastic molds as you mentioned. Otherwise you are pretty much spot on. I would go 20s based on your local supply and access to prepainted diecast vehicles. Using railroad buildings is handy too…and since you are doing WW2 and most railroading is stuck in the 40s and 50s…things would be fairly ideal.

Have you thought about 10mm? There is a lot of 1/144 stuff out there. Is N Scale popular in Korea? Its still big enough to do single basing with and has no major space requirements. Pegasus Hobbies even makes some prepainted troops.

@kyoteblue
Haha, I seriously have an urge to do just that :)

@cloudcaptain
The thing I don't quite like about Italeri/Revell infantry figures is that the animation somehow looks very stiff. But they're the only two 20mm infantry ranges that are readily available here.

There is a massive supply of 1:144 Gundam models in Korea, but WW2 models are receiving no love.
As I mentioned before, almost nobody is interested in wargaming, so the only similar demand comes from military modellers who mostly use 1:48 scale and higher.

I suspect that the only reason I have ready acess to some 1:72 scale models is because there is still a sizable portion of military modellers who use this scale.

The thing about 15mm terrain is that they will need to be imported too… but I can easily find 20mm buildings, barrels, fortifications and such at local hobby stores.

I suggest 20mm. Plastics are a lot cheaper than metal nowadays, and all 15mm come in metal. Also, plastics are easier to handle and you can drop them without damaging the figures.

The thing I don't like about 20mm (or 1/72) plastics are that they're too soft and bendy. The paint will peel right off if the plastics are stressed. Maybe you should go 15mm after all.

I'm as undecided as you are.

Tons and tons and tons of stuff in 15mm. Very cheap, and I find the level of detail to be surprisingly good sometimes

The paint will peel right off if the plastics are stressed.

Many ways to prevent that. Mine is simply PVA before and after. The paint is sandwiched in tough and flexible PVA.

Others swear by special plastic primers or gesso.

I agree that some of the major advantages of 15mm don't apply to your situation while availability of kits is a major plus. Shipping lead is also more expensive then plastic.

AB WWII 20mm figures look supeb, and the Cromwell Models Combat Ready resin range of vehicles is superb too, and reasonably priced.

I'm not sure 20mm is cheaper than 15mm, but Battlefront's prices are creeping up. They are now comparable in price to one another.

20mm is larger, so the figs and vehicles look more impressive on the tabletop, but makes for a more crowded battlefield. I just increase the firing ranges for the troops/tanks, and use a bigger table to accommodate that.

20mm figs are quite a bit more costly than 15mm scale, but look very nice.

The final choice is up to you.

You also should consider the rules you want nothing to complicated for your non wargaming freinds you dont want to put them off.

Apart from that I would go 15mm.

Mark

Not sure how shipping would work out to Korea, but we offer an extensive 15mm WW2 range and don't have any price rises planned for this year. Don't forget to check the platoon pack discounts for any extra savings ;-)

Geoff
quickreactionforce.co.uk

20mm figs are quite a bit more costly than 15mm scale, but look very nice.

I'm pretty certain he's comparing 20mm plastic to 15mm metal so 20mm is substantially cheaper than 15mm.

guildwargamers.com

Kraussian – there is another WW2 gamer who lives in Korea who has posted on TMP a few times. Hopefully he will respond to your request or maybe someone else can remember his name?

I would recommend 20mm (1/72) to anyone (!) but especially given what you've said about your circumstances. If you are planning to do Germans vs. Russians then I would suggest Airfix Germans or Pegasus' SS set on one hand and Pegasus' new Russians on the other. For the equivalant of about £10.00 GBP in Korean money you are done. Add vehicles to taste – you say Revell are available in your area, their vehicles are generally excellent.

Regards the whole paint peeling off plastic figures issue – prime your figures in PVA glue, paint and varnish and you should have no problems.

I'm pretty certain he's comparing 20mm plastic to 15mm metal so 20mm is substantially cheaper than 15mm.

Cheaper than £4.50-5.00 a vehicle?

Wow, I didn't expect such overwhelming response.
Thanks for all your helpful comments!

@WW2Fanatik
From what I see from PSR( plasticsoldierreview.com ) , Italeri seems to use harder consistency. Would this problem still be valid for "hard plastic"?

@Top Gun Ace, @BooneC
Yes, I was indeed referring to 20mm plastics when I said that "20mm is cheaper".
But then I did notice that the prettier 20mm figures are all metal, and metal 20mm costs similar to 15mm.

@mtmodels
I was thinking that "NUTS!" would be simple and fast enough to play with non-wargamers while explaining the rules to them "on-the-fly".
Could you recommend a better choice for platoon-level skirmishes?

@Geoff
I'll be sure to check out your ranges. I just hope that the shipping costs will turn out to be afforddable…
But as I mentioned before, I'll most likely use Battlefront miniatures if I decide to go 15mm, mainly because Maelstrom ( with their "free shipping worldwide" policy ) carries them.

@Big P from GMG
I've registered at the Guild too : )

…because Maelstrom (with their "free shipping worldwide" policy) carries them

Just check your prices carefully, there is no such thing as free shipping ;-)

Here you go.
"Valiant Miniatures produce high quality 1/72 scale injection moulded plastic figure sets for gamers, modellers and collectors. They are hard plastic figures, manufactured in polystyrene, allowing the figures to be easily glued and painted."
valiantminiatures.com

Have you considered 6mm? ;-)

Cheaper than both, quicker to paint (so get to the table), saves a lot on storage, and you can get bigger (or more realistic as to distances etc…) battles on the same table size… And likely less postage to play as well…

Some nice manufacturers out there (GHQ, C in C, Scotia, Adler, Navwar, Irregular).

Cheers
Koen

If you're determined to go with NUTS I would go with 20mm – the rules get very involved in the details of each figure, so the bigger the figure the easier it is to tell your guys apart and the more personality you can give them. NUTS is not going to work with tons of guys on the table anyway.

For cheap 15mm figs join the OLD Glory Army and get the 40% discount. In Australia that works out at about AUD$5-00.

Thats at the oldglory25s site.

BTW we play 20mm WW2 because my group is made up of old modellers who have been playing collecting for 25 years plus. If we were starting out now we would use 15mm.

More space on the table for bigger games and manouver.
The time you save not modelling the kits you can spend on either the paint job or playing.

If you have 1/72 avaliable in your area, then do that.
The 1/72 figures are cheap and look great.
I have hundreds and have never once had a problem with "paint peeling off" of them.

10 mike mike, we have a special place int heaven!

Cheaper than £4.50-5.00 a vehicle?

If you read my entire post including the quote I was replying to you will see we were discussing figures NOT vehicles.

20mm figs are quite a bit more costly than 15mm scale, but look very nice.

I'm pretty certain he's comparing 20mm plastic to 15mm metal so 20mm is substantially cheaper than 15mm.

Kraussian,

The more realistic proportions of 20mm plastic compared to metal minis is usually considered a big plus.

If you prefer the look of metal figures then going the 15mm route becomes a lot more attractive.

I guessing you are already leaning 15mm metal and just want a little support . My advice is go with the heart, not the head! It's a hobby not a business.

Welcome to the WW2 gaming club!

If you are concerned about the price, Pegasus 1/72nd plastic are cheap, incredibly detailed, don't weigh much for postage and are fairly rigid for 1/72nd plastics. As mentioned above, the old problem with paint peeling isn't a big deal anymore.

Ditto for Valiant plastics for the above. But they don't mix with anything else.

See if you can buy some of the ready painted Dragon vehicles from ebay. If you stick to one size of vehicle, no one will be put off if your figures are a different scale.

Are 28mm figures completely out? You don't seem to be ordering too many figures, and the detail on this scale is very good.

For 15mm QRF have a very good range and good stuff all around. Old Glory Command decision infantry are decent and really cheap, but they come in packs of 50.

Four thoughts:

If you think that in time you will expand the scope of your games, 15mm will allow bigger games on any given table.

Are you sure that 20mm kits are cheaper? I'm doing 20mm Vietnam, and am amazed at the price of 1/72 vehicle kits, typically almost twice what I'd pay for 15mm vehicles at $7.00-$9.00 for most.

15mm is not too small for skirmish, been doing it since 1988 without a problem.

Having 20mm stuff readily avaiable may be more important than any of the other issue. Especially if you want to promote others getting into the hobby.

I'm pretty certain he's comparing 20mm plastic to 15mm metal so 20mm is substantially cheaper than 15mm.

For the figures maybe, but 20mm plastics are not that cheap for vehicles – the Revell 1/72 kits are running at £7.99 GBP in the local shop and I can get equivalents in 15mm for £5.00 GBP Also by the time you have discarded the useless figures in a 20mm box of plastics I'm not sure how much cheaper they are than 15mm. For £7.99 GBP you can get 4 packs of 8 15mm figures – that's 32 usable figures as opposed to 50 plastics that you can only use half of.

Personally I wouldn't touch Battlefront as they are suffering from scale creep. Some of their vehicles are much too large.

QRF on the other hand have an excellent range for WWII and pride themselves on being 15mm true scale.

Are you going to limit yourself exclusively to WW2? I am heavily invested in 15mm myself now, but if I were starting over, and weren't so concerned about finding local games, I'd probably go with 20mm simply because I can find plenty of figures and scenery that will work across multiple periods.

For WW2 only, 20mm are a bit easier to handle for skirmish, probably a better choice for Nuts! than 15mm. That said, I do play Nuts using 15mm figures on pennies, so it works just fine. The small figures are subject to damage though. Plastic would probably last better unless you're careful about handling only by the base.

I'd go 6mm for higher level games.

- Bob

I went into plastic 20mm miniatures for the same reasons than you.

Nowaday, I would like have choosed (sorry about my english) 15mm, as in vehicles and buildings, they look less crowded than 20mm.

I must say that I play company level games (that´s a company and some vehicles by side), with IABSM ruleset, which allow for a very low terrain scale, but with higher level games, like comand decision, I hate the look of 1:72 miniatures; you know, you have a three house´s town, and you can fire from one house to another as they are out of range.

but for platoon level games, and games as nuts where you control each mini, I would choose 20mm. One infantry box by side, and you are done. I would choose valiant miniatures, their detail is superb.

after all this, I think the coin toss is the best suggestion.

You'll end up doing both anyway. That's the nature of the addiction.

I vote 20mm scale too. If you want prepainted tanks to save time there is lots out there. The Armourfast stuff is super cheap with enough details for the table top, if you'd like to assemble and paint armor.

I agree with runs with scissors on the detail of the miniatures in NUTS! and the skirmish level game you'd like to play. I play with 20mm bendy plastics, but I love the Valiant stuff. If you get I box of Valiant germans and go with metal Russians by FAA (or other metal companies) the match is pretty good. I don't like the bendy plastic minis, but they are cheap and available. You could start with the bendy stuff, and if you keep playing go to metal and/or Valiant (1/72 scale).

The other game system I use all the time for WWII is Disposable Heroes. It's skirmish level with armor. It's easy to learn, a quick game, fun and detailed enough for my game style and my game club. Have fun!
Cheers!

@dalemunk
I think 6mm would be too small to actually appreciate the detail on models. As you might have guessed, I won't have much chances at actual gaming, so I'll be concentrating more on the modelling/painting aspects.

@runs with scissors
I'm not actually "determined" to go with NUTS!, but this ruleset seemed quick and easy.
Do you have any better recommendations?

@BooneC
The problem is that I don't quite know where my "heart" is :P
You're right in that I'm leaning towards 15mm. The tiny size looks kinda cute, but I keep thinking that it's so small that most detail is lost…

@Chortle
Since I come from 40K, I know that 28mm figures can be extremely detailed.
Much as I like the scale, I'm concerned at vehicle sizes, especially if I want them scaled realistically against infantry.
I also noticed that the cost starts to get rather prohibitive at 28mm too.

@GeorgeQRF
I've gone through the QRF ranges, and they sure look impressive.
But the shipping costs at 30% total price will be a huge drawback for me.
To put this into perspective, let's say I want 2 companies of Soviet T-34/85, 5 tanks each.
If I buy Battlefront miniatures from Maelstrom, this will cost me 54 GBP with no shipping costs.
With QRF, it will be 40 + 12 = 52 GBP.
If I can assume that the quality of QRF miniatures is at comparable quality to Battlefront, than the costs are similar.

I'd probably go with 20mm simply because I can find plenty of figures and scenery that will work across multiple periods.

Interesting POV Bob as I went for 15mm for exactly that reason. I could use the scenery for my other 15mm armies/periods. Not much for other periods in 20mm (although the plastics are expanding). Mostly it is 15mm or 25mm if you want to game other periods.

Kraussian, to me it's simple.

If you enjoy modeling, then go with 1:72/6 scale. Plastic is the best medium for modeling.

If you don't enjoy modeling, then 15mm is the route to go.
--
Tim

You need the one true scale… 28mm! (ducking thrown bottles…)

Tim, your words strike very true.

I think I've decided on 20mm, at least until the addiction takes over and I find myself having both 15mm and 20mm :P

Find out that folks near you play with. Go with that scale.

If there is no one in your area that does WWII, then you have to decide if you want inexpensive (20mm) or something that uses less table space (15mm figs need less room).

That's my take.

mjc

If you're doing it for the fun of painting, go 20mm.

If you're doing it for skirmish gaming, go 15mm.

And if you're doing it for a broad range of gaming, go 10/12mm. Price-wise, space-wise, availability, can't go wrong.

Can you get access to any local U.S. military bases? I did a lot of gaming every weekend when I was in Korea at the local Base recreation centers.

Just to be different I see (personally), no gain in 15mm over 20mm. I am an unashamed wargamer. The models need to look OK at 4 ft (about 1200mm) thats all. For WWII you can get the basisc in Armour Fast which if painted look OK, quick to build and dammage tolerant. 15mm to my mind gains little over 1/72 in size and costs more for detail I do not personally want. If you want to play vehicles then again personally I would go to 1:144. Noticeably bigger than 10mm, much less variety available but some available cheap and ready painted a BIG plus for me. 10mm and 6mm are to small for the games I want to play.

The big questions for me really is

What can I get with ease?

What scale do my potential fellow gamers have?

More than once I have found local gamers who have an interest, enthusiasm and a collection (in a different scale to my own).

Years ago, 15mm for WW2 was a bit of a no go, now, it is a very different situation.

Yet, 20mm seemed to be no good for other eras.

Locally, my circle of gaming friends tend to be 10mm/N Gauge gamers (cost and space considerations more than anything else).

I think I've decided on 20mm

Kinda moot point from here then, but anyway…

@GeorgeQRF

Who? :-D

With QRF, it will be 40 + 12 = 52 GBP

Uh… 10 x 5 = £50, less platoon pack discount = £45, plus shipping £13.50 GBP = £58.50… or you can have them post free at a discounted price of £5.85 GBP each, or £58.50… Sorry, can you run the huge shipping drawback past me again? ;-)

But if you prefer I'll happily put the price up to £5.85 GBP and send them post free… :-D

If you read my entire post including the quote I was replying to you will see we were discussing figures NOT vehicles.

Oops, sorry, let me correct that… cheaper than 25p a figure?

Kraussian, drop me an email.

If i was starting again i'd go with 15mm (and 1/100) for vehicles rather than 20mm. The variety you can get now is just amazing. Apart from the very accurate stuff from QRF and the very available Battlefront range there is also Peter Pig who does some pretty nice models with extra detail.

I have no 15mm. :)

I know that seems impossible but its the last holdout as i do have 28mm,6mm & 20mm ranges. I've always done 20mm as over here they have been available in local toy stores on a regular basis.

Pat, I'm just the opposite. I love all my 15mm stuff, but if I had my druthers I'd get rid of both my 28mm AND my 15s and start again with 20mm all the way. It's the perfect combo of detail, affordability, and selection. But since I have almost completely painted collections in the two other scales I will stick with what I have.

I suppose the choice between 15 and 20mm really comes down to local availability and pricing for me. In my case, I had a substantial investment in 15mm before stumbling into 20mm heaven, a shop laden with 20mm plastics from all periods. Most of the items listed on the web pages seem to be on the shelves, and it took a tremendous amount of self-control (and lack of cash) to resist buying a cartload of the stuff… I managed to get out with only 3 boxes of Caesars.

Other than local variety and cost, I can be happy with either option. Given Kraussian's situation, it does sound like 20mm might make the most sense.

- Bob

Most of the time, it comes down to what is popular with your mates/club. Gaming capacity tends to be limited when you turn up with your 15mm army, and everyone else has 20mm (or vice versa)

@GeorgeQRF

Who? :-D

Oops, sorry about that Geoff. I must have been sleepy when I posted that last night.

Uh… 10 x 5 = £50, less platoon pack discount = £45, plus shipping £13.50 GBP GBP = £58.50… or you can have them post free at a discounted price of £5.85 GBP GBP each, or £58.50… Sorry, can you run the huge shipping drawback past me again? ;-)

But if you prefer I'll happily put the price up to £5.85 GBP GBP and send them post free… :-D

Well, that just proves again that I was sleepy :P
I had mistakenly thought that the platoon pack discount was £10.00 GBP instead of £5.00 GBP

In any case, this means that purchasing similar models from QRF will be £4.50 GBP more expensive than purchasing Battlefront models from Maelstrom (£58.50 vs £54.00).

Another example will be a case where I would want to purchase 2 infantry platoons, with 40 models each.

At QRF, I'll need 10 packs of 8 models at £2.00 GBP each, and these don't apply for "platoon pack" discounts AFAIK.
So it will sum up to £20.00 GBP + £6.00 GBP = £26.00 GBP

From Maelstrom, a platoon pack costs £10.80 GBP each.
So it will add up to £21.60 GBP + £0.00 GBP = £21.60 GBP

No offense, but I think it's pretty clear why Maelstrom is so much more attractive to me (I'd like to emphasize that me, as I'm sure QRF will be great for US/UK customers) than almost any other retailer/distributor that are located outside of Korea.

Neither 1/48-36-40mm is the scale to use,you will be spoiled for choice in vehicle,tanks etc.terms and good number of figure manufacturers are emerging.

!0mm is best i've just finished converting to 10mm, in some cases theres more detail on the 10mm than the 15 or 20's also cost is now a great factor in all peoples mind.

ALso who are your opponents ? what do they have?

LOL M

i would say it depends on rules and opponents.

The most popular rules are flames of war. you pretty much need 15mm for fow. i mostly use peter pig miniatures instead of battlefront

Rapid fire are popular and they generally are played with 20mm.

The more skirmish orientated games are often played with 28mm models and will give you a very different type of game to either rapid fire or flames of war.

Personally i don't like rapid fire and do like flames of war, but that is just a personal opinion nothing more. Both rules have their fans.