"Education" Topic

I was reading a British wargaming forum today. The thread I was following was an introductions-type thread where everyone was sharing their education levels.

I remember a time when it was thought that wargamers, as a group, were in the upper chunk with respect to intelligence and/or education because of the amount of research that they routinely did in their periods. That thread today still showed that -- an enormous number of people with advanced degrees.

So, I'm wondering, across the board, where the mass of TMP-ers fall in that regard.

(a) High school/GED/similar certificate
(b) College-level work but no degree
(c) College-level degree (whether BA or BS or something else)
(d) Advanced degree (MA, MS, or some professional certification equivalent to that degree)
(e) PhD, JD, MD, or similar.

I'll start that ball rolling:

d) MSc. Professional Computing

BA in Business Information Systems
Master of Industrial and Labor Relations

(accepted to law school twice and didn't have the money either time!)

PhD. I was interviewed on TV recently and referred to as doctor and my daughter (upon viewing the interview) shouted out "But daddy, you're not a doctor!" Humbling!

BS Accounting and BA History, starting MA Military History in the spring…

Not revealing anything, but for a poll, you need something before choice "A."

Ohh I'm a thicky. I've only got a FDH and NDH in horticulture. Agricultural college for me, none of that university stuff.

Having said that I now work in a university and I have to say a university education is not an actual indication of intelligence or common sense. I've been working with some professors on a cosmic garden project and there grasp of history (and reality) are pretty shaky to say the least.

MA in English Lit.

BA History

Damon.

AA degree in Liberal Arts, BA degree in Political Science, Minor in History, College Credit towards Masters in Homeland Security, still uneducated!

Into which of those categories falls the descriptor: 'Can't spell "wargaming"'?

My experience has been that degrees don't really mean that much. Neither intelligence nor knowledge is especially dependent on educational level. So I don't wave my diplomas about, or put letters after my name. My education has been interesting, because I chose to pursue interesting subjects. But I don't consider that the letters define me in any way. And so I don't judge anyone's abilities by their educational "attainments". I *do* look askance at the use of degrees and honorifics in inappropriate context.

Allen

BA with IT certifications

But I only use my degrees as a substitute for my euphemism…

More typically I tend to think of my degree as indicating that about 15 people in the world are interested in what I studied…

I guess A would be my classification. Only a measly High School Diploma. But I did work in education for 20+ years and believe me, I've seen more degree holders (aka teachers, professors, etc..)who couldn't understand the workings of a thermostat or how turning off a light switch would save on energy. I worked in HVAC and energy management out in California. Degrees are good but they certainly don't define you.

Ken
Blue Moose Arts

JD -- 10-11 years of college total.

Professional Student for too long.

mjc

BA in Secondary Education
MA in European History

Of course my career in Federal Programs has absolutely nothing to do with History, sigh.

in spite of my BA and Diploma of Education I found university a great place to learn many things….

BA in Biology w/Geology minor
MS in Geology
Various professional certifications

"…I found university a great place to learn many things…."

I understand *that*!

Allen

JD and a PhD drop out.

BSc Mechanical Engineering (failed). Spent too much time wargaming. Guess that makes me a b)

PhD in Cell Biology and Genetics. JDs and MDs are NOT similar.

BS in Pharmacy

Mark

BSc Oceanography and Palaeontology, and MSc in Palaeontology.

JD's and MD's are not above PhD. Just a thought. More akin to a MA/MS with some practicum.

When I can get JD/MD pay levels for a PhD, I'll believe that…

BA in Translation
Minor in Law

BA, Classics, considering a MA.

BA Physics
MS Meteorology
Education courses on top of that

Just put me down for a "b", too long to explain.

BA's in Political Science and French
MA in National Security Studies

I will also agree with much of the above about these things being meaningless. When I was moving to Brussels (after just having spent a year in Germany) a colleague (with an MBA) in DC said to me, no lie, "I bet you're glad to be getting back to Germany."

BA (Calcutta) Failed.

ONC in Aeronautical Engineering. I have absolutely no idea what that translates as.

Following on from Bob in Edmonton's expereince. My wife showed my mother-in-law a copy of an article I had written. My mother-in-law laughed and said "Oh look someones got the same name as your John"

BA – Cognitive Linguistics

BS Accounting with a minor in Comp. Sci., MBA Finance & certificate in Inter. Finance … really boring stuff…

"When I can get JD/MD pay levels for a PhD, I'll believe that…"

That is why I'm a PhD drop out.

BA in secondary education, social studies.

Category B working on C…

Started college in Fall 1986, stopped in Summer of 1987…resumed in 2000…stopped in 2003…resumed in Sept 2005, stopped in summer 2006…and will resume hopefully sometime around Spring 2010.
Halfway to getting my associates.

A 13 year "detour" courtesy of Uncle Sam. Don't try to take college classes while in a FORCOM unit. They don't like the idea, and take you lots of "field exercises" to keep you from doing it…

But on the scary side…even with 20+ years of on/off schooling, I am the only one in THREE generations of my family that has gone to college…

No one else in my "tree" seems interested…

And I agree with Allen. Degrees don't mean that you are "smart", (trust me on this), but in the "world o' work", may HR people cling to the idea that "in order to do a certain job a person HAS to have "this" type of degree"…

MA in Historical Studies
MSLS in Library Science

I view my advanced degrees as a license to do research.
BS Geology
BS Biology
MS Biology
Ph.D. Biology

Category B. 4 1/2 years of college, no degree. Long story, and extremely unimportant.

When I can get JD/MD pay levels for a PhD, I'll believe that…"

That is why I'm a PhD drop out.

That's why I left my PhD program too. Well that and accounting research threatened my remaining sanity. I actually earn more as a run of the mill CPA and still have enough time and money to pursue my love of Military History. Where I have the most fun with no formal education whatsoever!

Here'a s little confession to explain my attitude. When I left active duty and eventually transitioned to civil service, my first supervisor…

Let me back up. In the office (our division, anyway), the chief was a lieutenant colonel. There were two or three project officers, captains who typically were promoted to major while they were there, and a couple of senior NCOs. On our civilian side of the division, there was a supervisor, equivalent to a LTC; two of us were analysts (equivalent to majors); and there were four intelligence interns (equivalent to captains!) under our wing, learning the trade.

In the directorate, led by a colonel, there were two other divisions set up generally the same way, except that one was all-civilian. The point is that the whole organization consisted of professionals, mostly field grade officers or civilian equivalents. Most of us took the time to pursue advanced degrees by one means or another.

The supervisor in our division had a Ph.D. in 17th century German literature; his dissertation had been on some obscure psalm writer. He was always addressed and referred to as "Doctor so-and-so", even though his degree had *nothing whatsoever* to do with the work at hand.

I don't know why, but that bugged me. That was a good thing, I suppose: it bugged me so much that I went to grad school there, and after leaving that post, continued to leap the academic hurdles just so *I* could have a similarly pointless degree and funny letters!!! And I made sure that in my next job, I restructured it by accumulating functions and duties so that it was re-graded at an even higher pay grade than my old boss had held! Funny the little things that motivate you…

But after achieving those particular little "goals", I've never once used the bells and whistles that go along with them. I guess that once I'd reaching the petty goal of "I can do that, too!", common sense set in, and I rejected the trappings as meaningless. As I said, it was fun along the way, as the subject matter was interesting. But in the end, it didn't feel much like an accomplishment; more like just another hurdle on the track.

It may have made more of a difference if I'd gone to grad school right after college. But when you start up again in middle age, the requirements seem a lot like blocks to be checked, and the politics of departmental committees and the angst of defenses just seem like irritants.

It was especially noticeable in the master's program; a number of military folks and even retirees were in the program, along with the younger students. We "old folks" would often shake our heads at the youngsters for taking it so darned seriously instead of just checking off the blocks, and frequently wondered aloud to each other why people seemed to think this stuff was hard. Yes, cranking out papers is a pain; but once you've produced enough operations orders, papers just seem like a routine chore. Just like transmitting the commander's intent, once you've identified the key thought, so much of the rest is simply mechanical.

But then, we were usually leading the discussions in seminars and such. In some cases, it was obvious that those of us who had spent time in the military were in a completely different world from those who had only been students so far.

And then I've seen so many folks that got degrees not in subjects that they loved, but simply to get promoted in the military, or to be able to put those letters on a business card. The degrees in the military's own schools are generally pretty undemanding and unsatisfying, especially in the intelligence community. And people out here in the wacky world jump through hoops in all sorts of programs just to get those wondrous abbreviations. But I've yet to see one express much fulfillment from it.

So that's why, when here on TMP people ask about degree programs, I'm inclined to say go with the one that you think you'll enjoy. I was lucky: I got to pick exactly what I wanted to study, and the subjects were ones that fascinated me. If you're going after a degree just to have a degree, I think you need to ask some hard questions about your motivation. I went after mine for petty reasons, but in the end, the experience gave me great pleasure, so I was fortunate.

I don't know if that rambling makes any sense…

Allen

aecurtis wrote:

The supervisor in our division had a Ph.D. in 17th century German literature; his dissertation had been on some obscure psalm writer. He was always addressed and referred to as "Doctor so-and-so", even though his degree had *nothing whatsoever* to do with the work at hand.

And what on Earth is wrong with that? "Doctor" is the correct form of address for anyone who holds a PhD, unless trumped by some higher title such as "Professor", "Sir", "Margrave", "Archimandrite" or whatever.

For myself, outside medical contexts where it might cause unwelcome confusion, I ask that people who insist on using titles use my correct title. I prefer to be addressed as "John", but if titles there must be then it's "Doctor Salt", not "Mister Salt"; "Mister" means "master", and I have no wish to be anybody's master.

I don't know why, but that bugged me. That was a good thing, I suppose: it bugged me so much that I went to grad school there, and after leaving that post, continued to leap the academic hurdles just so *I* could have a similarly pointless degree and funny letters!!!

17th century German literature is no more and no less pointless than any other academic subject. Education is done for its own sake; that's what distinguishes it from training. PhD's ain't training, and nor for that matter are most HE qualifications of honours degree level or above.

If you want to accumulate impressive postnominal letters, there are lots of easier ways than doing a doctorate. The cheapest of mine costs me a mere tenner a year.

This seems a good place to recommend the Institute of Spurious Postnominals, who will award you the postnominal letters MISPN free on application. I have the honour to be a fellow of the ISPN, and can therefore sign myself

John D Salt BA PhD MSSAISB MUKSS MACM MMCA MORS MRUSI FISPN

"And what on Earth is wrong with that?"

Because it has nothing more to do with writing manuals on the Soviet Army than… oh, say painting wargames figures (sorry, Phil!). It's out of context.

If one actually *does* what the title originally meant--that is to teach others--then I can see it as an appropriate title, in that context. If I'm turning a wrench, or digging a ditch, I don't need anyone in the workplace addressing me as "Magister" or "Doctor" or "Reverend".

But then, my forebears came to these shores almost four hundred years ago to escape antiquated social structures, so I suppose it's in the blood.

Allen

Option B

Went to a community college for my paramedic training, they offered an associate degree but in this career it dosen't do any good. Some places offer a BA in EMS something or other but if your license is lapsed your not a paramedic anymore. With all the continuing education required to maintain my license I should have a BA in something by now but no one recognizes that either.

So it's sort of silly

BA Politics and Social Policy

"So it's sort of silly"

No, the OP was wanting to assess the proportion of gamers who have HE qualifications: "That thread today still showed that -- an enormous number of people with advanced degrees."

It's got nothing to do with whether such qualifications are relevant to either your career or your hobby, but rather as an abstract measure of "intelligence and/or education".

aecurtis wrote:

"And what on Earth is wrong with that?"

Because it has nothing more to do with writing manuals on the Soviet Army than… oh, say painting wargames figures (sorry, Phil!). It's out of context.

Only if one has an exceptionally narrow and compartmentalised view of human abilities. The award of a PhD is supposed to certify that the recipient has an ability to conduct research. Not just research in a single tiny topic area, but research generally. Presumably, part of writing manuals on the Soviet Army is to conduct research, no?

The other thing a PhD is awarded for -- and the one that separates the ones who get the hat from the ones who don't -- is sheer bloody-minded persistence. I can think of few contexts where that is irrelevant.

If one actually *does* what the title originally meant--that is to teach others--then I can see it as an appropriate title, in that context.

PhDs do not now certify any ability to teach; indeed I have seen plenty of people with PhDs whose teaching was ropey in the extreme. Nonetheless, if you are going to insist on Latinate exactitude, are manuals not intended for the instruction of the reader? How is this not teaching?

If I'm turning a wrench, or digging a ditch, I don't need anyone in the workplace addressing me as "Magister" or "Doctor" or "Reverend".

And I don't need anyone addressing me as "Mister".

But then, my forebears came to these shores almost four hundred years ago to escape antiquated social structures, so I suppose it's in the blood. grin

It's always good to show how progressive you are by appeal to ancestors from four centuries ago. It's almost British. ;-)

All the best,

John.