"FoW: This is too embarrassing! And funny! But scary too." Topic

I do apologise, Kaoschallenged.

It was an awful sweeping generalisation based on eight or so years worth of observing the welcome wagon that the TMP Old Guard roll out to newcomers with "stupid" questions.

Thanks. No Prob then LOL. Im just 4 years behind you then LOL :). I guess its good that he only asked it over on the FoW site. Robert

Plynikes wrote:

Why don't we close down TMP and replace it with a web page that just says "Go look it up!", eh?

Been done

tinyurl.com/nkjc38

I'm still waiting for McKinstry to give us the answers to his questions.

Who cares about a kid playing with toy soldiers not knowing basic history or google?
Grown ups playing with toy soldiers.

One sees here [and elsewhere]comments about the failure of schools to teach basic history.
The trouble with History is that there is now an awful lot of it,and more with every year that passes. I was at school in the 60's and did History up to A Level and at no time did anyone purport to teach The Entire History of Everything from the Dawn of Time.It can't be done and something has to go.
No-one ever taught me WW2 but when I was at school it hadn't long stopped being "current affairs". It was assumed I suspect that you would KNOW about WW2.because it was still part of your family's experience in one way or another.And you would see films like "The Longest Day" "The Battle of Britain" and "The Great Escape" and read comics like "War Picture Library"---WW2 was part of British culture.
Its scary when you realise that what my parents still call "The War" finished over half a century ago,and it just isn't in the public consciousness anymore..

Yes, Wyatt's pretty much correct. It's like the 20th century has become a taboo topic in high school history courses. Strangely enough, that's when all the "special topics" (as he says" they like to harp about happened. Yup, women's history, minority history and such have become more important to learn than the general background around which such things happened (and yes, they are taught in a vaccuum). More strangely, considering how important the Holocaust has become in these same terms, it is either left out or also taught in a vaccuum. Of course, as it is taught in hs and generally understood by the public, the concentration camps always existed and only the Germans murdered Jews. I even had one boob in one of my college courses state unequivocally that "murdering Jews is part of German culture"! When I pointed out that the Jews had been marginalized throughout Europe for at least a thousand years and that others had been involved in the slaughter of Jews, he changed that to, "all right, murdering Jews is part of European culture"!

"all right, murdering Jews is part of European culture"!

I could see some justification for that statement.

Pat

The trouble with History is that there is now an awful lot of it,and more with every year that passes. I was at school in the 60's and did History up to A Level and at no time did anyone purport to teach The Entire History of Everything from the Dawn of Time. It can't be done and something has to go.

While the 20th century has certainly seen an influx of information, technological advancement and political instability, I don't think there is that much new compared to the previous few thousand years. I'm just doing law, and while the last 10 years may have seen several changes, it hasn't wiped out the necessity to know the previous 200.

There does appear to be a move towards teaching niche subjects, but forgetting an overall comprehension of the world in which is resides.

Ignorance can lead to worse things than not knowing what an axis is.Ignorance combined with some passage of time means you can choose,on a whim, to swallow any alternative myths which are fed in deliberately such as Holocaust denial or faked Moon landings.When your grandad still had old newspaper cuttings of Belsen,and when people knew ex-soldiers who had been there,there was no room for such fancies.
I would agree that trying to focus on specific aspects without some knowledge of the overall context isn't helpful.But you can't do everything.At school we started with the Ancient World,moved on to the Norman Conquest, and then Henry viii. After that the examination system required a tighter focus.
As an aside,at school there was an almost complete disregard for the history of our Scottish neighbours,except when it impinged directly on English history.Even now I feel its something I ought to know about,and read up on,someday.

I don't think it's important to know what the origin of the word "Axis" is in life. That he even recognizes it shows he's a smart kid. That he questions where the term comes from, to me, shows great intelligence. I say good for him.

Well I had to think for a second, but got roughly the same idea in mind that Jgwane googled. Maybe the kid wasn't sure and decided to phrase his question in a jokey way, or maybe he was having a laugh, who knows but him. As many have said previously here, assuming he didn't know, at least he asked, and that's how we learn stuff.

My history lessons ceased in school aged about 13, 14 as I recall. There was a lot taught on Romans, the battle of Bosworth I seem to recall, and I reckoned we still had a half millienia to go until we reached WW2, and to be frank I didn't think we were going to make it by the time I turned 16. I think history is perhaps more of a personal passion, you look around and find that one period that sucks you in totally and that's it for a lot of us. If you had a time machine you know precisely what date you'd punch into the console to go to.

I'd hate to have to prioritise historical events and periods for teaching purposes. I'd say i could put together an empassioned plea for WW2 to be covered in more detail than rationing and mobilising a female workforce. Others could do so likewise for the emergence of a civil rights movement, the onset of communisim in the early 1900s, the effects and legacy of European empire building in Africa and Asia, the invention of the spinning jenny and industrial revolution, the colonisation of South America by Spanish invaders and the…oh for goodness sakes you know what I mean! Looking back i'm glad in a way i wasn't taught WW2 history at school, they'd probably have ruined it for me same way they did every subject but English (thanks to a couple of good teachers).

Gary

Sorry, dudes, but you can't know everything about everything, even what we consider to be the basics. I'd rather have people ask questions…that means he's curious and wants to learn. That's not a bad thing.

BTW, I wasn't aware of where the term "Axis" came from yet I have a degree in history, a masters in War Studies, 20 years in the Army and another 10 as a civilian. I also have a way above average interest, and library on WWII. But, at the end of the day, there are far many more issues regarding WWII that are more imiportant.

Much ado about nothing. Kids will be kids. If I compare what I know about WW2 at 19 to what I know now…….. I was in the army then and I thought Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (my regiment then) fought WW2 all by themselves!!!!

I'd give the lad a break. I had to explain to my 11yr old Daughter who Churchill was – whilst studying the Romans, Stuarts & Tudors, and all the other irrelevant junk they teach 'em in British primary schools these days, he'd never come up.

Mind you, they'd managed to teach her that the British firebombing of Dresden was bad, mmmkay, and that Bomber Harris was singularly the most evil person in WW2, mmmkay. A quick trip to the teacher didn't necessarily put it right, but I did get an apology for not putting some context around the event.

which Mussolini called the "Pact of Steel".

Mussolini would not play FOW, he would play 40k.

I'm pretty sure the origin of the "Axis" was explained in an illustrated history of WWII that I had when I was about… 8 years old? The folks kept me well supplied with books, including encyclopedias; what public schools taught or didn't teach for history was irrelevant.

The human brain can store and recall an immense amount of information; very few people ever attempt to challenge its capacity. The written analyses of human history don't even begin to fill it.

You can ensure that your kids learn something worthwhile, or you can let them absorb the nonsense mentioned above.

In the context of the Axis, it *is* kind of important to understand today how Germany, Italy, and Japan were late-comers to the game of colonial empire-building, and how that quest for both material resources and prestige urged them together into cooperation. How different powers won and lost their colonial possessions is directly tied to so many issues today that appear as "crises", but are all just connected points on the path of history.

Allen

Colour of the sky?

Isn't that to do with the refraction of light off/through things in the air like water and pollution?

VB

Has anybody bothered to read his follow-up post? Sounds like more than a few read an awful lot into this. I think ol' Schwerpunkt has the last laugh on this one. I think I'll post this thread over on the FoW forums so they can get in a good laugh!

(Now we can debate the correctness of his correct answer for a few days.)

- Bob

had to explain to my 11yr old Daughter who Churchill was – whilst studying the Romans, Stuarts & Tudors, and all the other irrelevant junk they teach 'em in British primary schools these days, he'd never come up.

I really do hope that was deliberate.

If it was, nice one. If it wasn't…well

At least they were teaching the Romans, Tudors and Stuarts at all…

At my local school they cover only what the very narrow confines of the syllabus tells them what they have to teach, without any context outside those narrow confines. For example, last year they studied 7th Century Saxon England – not the Romans who came before or the Norse, Danes and Normans who arrived afterwards and not even the Welsh and Scots they were fighting during the 7th Century… Just the Saxons…

Needless to say, I have fourteen-year-old cadets who genuinely believe that Churchill is a cartoon dog who sells insurance (a character in a TV ad, for non-British readers) and who ask what I did in the war (I'm 38). When I explain that my military service started during the Cold War, most have absolutely no idea what that was – the more astute ones think that it had something to do with the Falklands, because that was cold…

… and these are cadets, who might be assumed to have a slightly higher-than-average interest in military affairs and history…

Needless to say, I regard my annual cadet tour of Normandy to be of incalculable benefit to their education!

If you're studying Romans, Stuarts and Tudors, I would not expect Winston Churchill's name to come up.

I don't know about how it's done in other countries, but history is taught in the U.S. in such a way as to make 90% of all students bored and sick of the subject and eager to forget what little they learn as soon as the test is handed in. See the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me."

What a ridiculous criticism of FOW.

You're indicting the rules because a young person had the nerve to ask a question that to all you geniuses and history experts seems silly.

How about considering the fact that this young person may not have given a moment of thought about the history of WWII if he hadn't gotten interested by FOW?

Your snobbery is pretty offensive.

Actually, it was a trivia question and nothing more. Much like those that appear here. The original poster (Schwerpunkt) has since posted the answer.

Don't forget that History can only ever be a small part of a school curriculam- Maths, English, Science, Computers, are the subjects seen as important for employability. Then add PE (because we now see they get fat), then add the other humanities along side History- Geography etc, plus Design Tech etc. So what do you teach (I will use the UK as my example- Johnny Foriegners will need to substitute their own equivalents)? WW2 has an impact on modern life? Well why not Stuarts to the ECW and the Glorious revolution, as that defined modern Britain's system of government? 19th Cent, as a reason why Britain holds a place in the world that appears to be out of proportion to its modern life, and explains our multi-culturism? Why not early medieval to explain why we aren't quite Germanic, not quite Gallic?

Also remember when we were growing up our Grandfathers had fought in WW2, and our parents grew up during it. In the mid 70s there was still an air-raid shelter round the corner from me. Look at programmes such as 'the Sweeney' with its derelict bombsites still in evidence.

Plus- and I think this is a biggie- how often are war movies shown nowadays? The ones of the "Longest day", "Battle of the Bulge", "Bridge at Remagen" type- even Kelly's heroes. When I played war at the age of 7 in the mid 70s we still played 'English' vs 'Germans'.

No-one under 20 was born during the 'Cold War' – the hang over from WW2, and have never wondered if they were going to be nuked out of existance. Falklands? The joke back in 82 was that the morning it was announced most Brits wondered why the Argies had invaded Scottish islands!

So what do you teach in that hour a week?

"What a ridiculous criticism of FOW.

You're indicting the rules because a young person had the nerve to ask a question that to all you geniuses and history experts seems silly.

How about considering the fact that this young person may not have given a moment of thought about the history of WWII if he hadn't gotten interested by FOW?

Your snobbery is pretty offensive."

I wish that we were able to see who a poster is responding to other then a general message as I wonder who "all you geniuses and history experts" are.Besides I see that most posts are not examples of offensive "snobbery" or a criticism against FoW but of the levels of education today when it comes to history being taught and in relation to gaming. In particular WWII. Quite a few here have commented in a positive way for the poster from the FoW site. And none has made a sweeping generalization of others here. Robert

Read the original post. It's point is disdain of the "FOW fanboys" because they're not serious students of history the way the grown ups(who also play with toy soldiers) who frequent this site are.

For those listening at home, here's the text of Schwerpunkt's follow-up:

31 Jul 2009 03:13 PM John Willis wins. [Ed: "Mussolini dubbed the Germany-Italy pact "the Axis" because he claimed the world would soon revolve around them."] That is the origin of the term.

Ellros..mate! Of course it was false. That was sarcasm on my part.

But again, as I have maintained, the typed word is hard to convey tone.

And I wager that most players out there, in all honesty, were unaware of this tidbit of completely useless trivia. Like what the true meaning and orgin of 'trivia' is. WITHOUT a wiki search of course.

But now that you know, "Go forth, and fear no darkess."

Source on the quote anyone?

- Bob

Let's see here: I knew that the Axis powers were Germany, Italy and Japan, but I couldn't have answered the kid immediately, either. And *here* is one of the first places I would have asked (most of the History department is out for the summer right now).

I'm not sure about his statement of the Axis powers being an underlying cornerstone of the FoW rules, but that's a different discussion.

Honestly, my last US/world history class spent about 3 weeks covering WW2. 2 weeks in europe and one in the Pacific. I learned more about the pacific war in my college-level eastern civ class, where we spent 6 weeks covering 4000 years of chinese history, another 6 weeks covering 2000 years of Japanese history, 2 weeks covering 400 years of the Phillipines, and a week covering 1500 years of Islam. I think we spent 4 days total on the Pacific war between China, Japan, and the PI.

I've even been known to say that BF has an obligation to ensure these kids get to know the history behind WW2.

Game companies are all about obligations to inform and educate the public.

I'm still burned that the publisher of "Killer Bunnies and the Quest for the Magic Carrot" doesn't have extensive information on the history of rabbits (domesticated and wild) on the website.

…….it's been hard trying to get them to understand that history plays a part in the game, a crucial part in fact. I've even been known to say that BF has an obligation to ensure these kids get to know the history behind WW2.

Get over yourself. You are playing with toy soldiers! Well said, Darthfozzywig.

Lion in the Stars, lets us not forget about the Axis powers of Roumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Finland plus the puppet governments established by the major powers in both Europe and Asia.

So when again was the term Allies coined for the anti-Axis nations?

I stand by my original intent when making this post, though as I said in a later reply I do feel some guilt about posting this in the first place. Knowing what the term "Axis" means or implies when you play FoW is assumed knowledge for mine. And if you're not sure then go do some quick and light research, online or in a library.

Yep, I'm playing with toy soldiers but I'm also playing them in a context. I don't consider it elitist etc to assume other players know that context and nor do I think you're expecting too much in making that assumption. I don't like playing against or with half painted armies, nor do I like playing against someone who doesn't have an inkling of the history of the period we're playing. It's my own personal standard, and I really do apologise to those who think it's too high for them or took offence that I voiced those standards.

Cardinal Hawkwood's post though makes a lot of sense though, and I'll leave it at that.

I'm another one of those players who's been studying WWII in print & film for 30 years or so and I also didn't have a clue on the origin of Axis. No reason to expect anyone to know honestly.

Many people studying the ACW are familiar with the monicker Johnny Reb, but how many know Mr. Yank's first name?

As far as the earlier comment about kids these days wanting information spoonfed to them, I posit that if all the non-kids here on TMP did a bit more research on their own the forums would be half their current size and everyone would know a lot less about each other.

Questions beget discussions which (should) beget comraderie. It's a good thing. :-)

Billy Yank, yes?

I don't like playing against or with half painted armies, nor do I like playing against someone who doesn't have an inkling of the history of the period we're playing. It's my own personal standard,………

McWong,

Far be it for me to tell you what your personal standards should be. It's your gaming, do what you will.

I took you to task for your comment, which I highlighted. Why does BF have some sort of obligation to teach children, that you don't place upon Disposable Heroes, Crossfire, Blitzkrieg Commander, Rapidfire, Axis and Allies, etc., etc.?

Since you brought it up, if some kid doesn't know or want to know about military history, but wants to blow up toy tanks with his friends, then what is it to us? We are not doing history, we are not doing military research, and we are not doing brain surgury. We are simply pushing toys across a tabletop.

Ralph

Ralph, well said. Without re-igniting this whole shebang, if you're going to build a business with a strong international reach and market around a product rooted in history, and history that is still relatively fresh, then you should make the effort to get some of that history across – which BF do better than any of the other games you mentioned. It's like corporate social responsibility, you gotta pay it forward etc. Some things can be reduced to "I'm just playing with toy soldiers" but that statement alone indicates that there could be potential problems.

This isn't a great analogy but it's like not teaching your kids that guns kill because you've only got blanks in yours. But like the Cardinal said, once you've reduced history to a game…

Paul good points as well, but not knowing (or in this case caliming not to know) what Axis even vaguely means is sloppy.

Should also clarify that my comment about obligation to get some history in was in reference to MWM, not the forum question. The forum question I see as some evidence that you need to be careful when presenting those vehicles as being non historically accurate gaming pieces, which they didn't do too well.

I'm another that's done a LOT of reading and never even considered the origins of Axis. To me it always simply meant "The Bad Guys". I guess I'm just sloppy… 8)=

I thought the term came from their theme song – Jimi Hendryx' "Axis: Bold as Love", which when translated into German somehow becomes "Horst Wessel March". Hitler used rock and roll to conquer Europe, but the cold Russian winter killed the batteries and the electric guitars conked out before the Soviet Union fell.

(Yes, I am kidding)

This is what we are supposed to teach California students about WW2:

10.7 Students analyze the rise of totalitarian governments after World War I.

1. Understand the causes and consequences of the Russian Revolution, including Lenin's use of totalitarian means to seize and maintain control (e.g., the Gulag).
2. Trace Stalin's rise to power in the Soviet Union and the connection between economic policies, political policies, the absence of a free press, and systematic violations of human rights (e.g., the Terror Famine in Ukraine).
3. Analyze the rise, aggression, and human costs of totalitarian regimes (Fascist and Communist) in Germany, Italy, and the Soviet Union, noting especially their common and dissimilar traits.

10.8 Students analyze the causes and consequences of World War II.

1. Compare the German, Italian, and Japanese drives for empire in the 1930s, including the 1937 Rape of Nanking, other atrocities in China, and the Stalin-Hitler Pact of 1939.
2. Understand the role of appeasement, nonintervention (isolationism), and the domestic distractions in Europe and the United States prior to the outbreak of World War II.
3. Identify and locate the Allied and Axis powers on a map and discuss the major turning points of the war, the principal theaters of conflict, key strategic decisions, and the resulting war conferences and political resolutions, with emphasis on the importance of geographic factors.
4. Describe the political, diplomatic, and military leaders during the war (e.g., Winston Churchill, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Emperor Hirohito, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, Douglas MacArthur, Dwight Eisenhower).
5. Analyze the Nazi policy of pursuing racial purity, especially against the European Jews; its transformation into the Final Solution; and the Holocaust that resulted in the murder of six million Jewish civilians.
6. Discuss the human costs of the war, with particular attention to the civilian and military losses in Russia, Germany, Britain, the United States, China, and Japan.

10.9 Students analyze the international developments in the post-World World War II world.

1. Compare the economic and military power shifts caused by the war, including the Yalta Pact, the development of nuclear weapons, Soviet control over Eastern European nations, and the economic recoveries of Germany and Japan.
6. Understand how the forces of nationalism developed in the Middle East, how the Holocaust affected world opinion regarding the need for a Jewish state, and the significance and effects of the location and establishment of Israel on world affairs.

11.7 Students analyze America's participation in World War II.
1. Examine the origins of American involvement in the war, with an emphasis on the events that precipitated the attack on Pearl Harbor.
2. Explain U.S. and Allied wartime strategy, including the major battles of Midway, Normandy, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and the Battle of the Bulge.
3. Identify the roles and sacrifices of individual American soldiers, as well as the unique contributions of the special fighting forces (e.g., the Tuskegee Airmen, the 442nd Regimental Combat team, the Navajo Code Talkers).
4. Analyze Roosevelt's foreign policy during World War II (e.g., Four Freedoms speech).
5. Discuss the constitutional issues and impact of events on the U.S. home front, including the internment of Japanese Americans (e.g., Fred Korematsu v. United States of America) and the restrictions on German and Italian resident aliens; the response of the administration to Hitler's atrocities against Jews and other groups; the roles of women in military production; and the roles and growing political demands of African Americans.
6. Describe major developments in aviation, weaponry, communication, and medicine and the war's impact on the location of American industry and use of resources.
7. Discuss the decision to drop atomic bombs and the consequences of the decision (Hiroshima and Nagasaki).
8. Analyze the effect of massive aid given to Western Europe under the Marshall Plan to rebuild itself after the war and the importance of a rebuilt Europe to the U.S. economy.

Source: cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss
It is not uncommon for World History classes to focus on the "Three Revolutions" (French Revolution, Industrial Revolution, Russian Revolution) or "Four Revolutions" (French, Industrial, Russian, and Independence of former colonies in the "third world"), and skip over almost everything else.

A U.S. History student (or even a teacher who wants to rush through this period) can get by with an overview that includes something about: 1) The Holocaust, 2) Japanese Internment, 3)FDR, 4) Rosie the Riveter, 5) Tuskegee Airmen, 6) Atomic Bomb

There's nothing particularly "wrong" with not knowing where "Axis" was first coined.

IMO it is odd that he (presumably) asked on a forum rather than looking it up in Google or Wiki.

It's plain weird that he thinks that FoW somehow can't work properly without knowing it.

I do have to admit when dealing with a game based on Historical events I tend to read up on the events and information in order to understand it better whether its Ancients all the way to the Present day.It just piques my natural curiosity and need to increase my knowledge. Nowadays I do alot more reading because of the easy availability of that information. Just this week I was able to pick up 20 more books to add to my collection :).Heck. Back in the early days of D&D I read up on Myths and Mythology. Arms and Armour . LOL. Robert

Aloysius the Gaul wrote:

[…] IMO it is odd that he (presumably) asked on a forum rather than looking it up in Google or Wiki.

He knew the answer, but was just asking a trivia question in a playful manner. We see much the same thing here on TMP. It's not an alien planet over there!

It's plain weird that he thinks that FoW somehow can't work properly without knowing it.

Reading that entire thread, I think it was just a ham-fisted way of saying that we use the term daily, yet many do not know the origins of the term (not WW2 or who the Axis Powers were).

If we step back and think about it a bit, we might well be surprised at how much history a kid can pick up from playing a historical wargame – even FoW – ESPECIALLY in comparison to their peers.

A few weeks ago I had a conversation with a kid at the local game store. He was able to carry on an intelligent discussion about how the Russian army changed over the course of the war, adopting smaller units with more support, and he also talked about how the German army's quality went down, how they started to use thrown-together units more often, etc.

I'd guess this kid was about 14.

I'm willing to bet that your average 14 year old doesn't even know that Germany and the USSR fought against each other in WWII.

Even if FoW serves as a "gateway drug" for a kid's interest in history, good! At least it gets them pointed in the right direction!

Tell him what he wins, Bob!

Ignoring for the moment the fact that most of the blind assumptions made about the poster of that question were completely, 100% WRONG (but don't let that stop you), I do have to ask how many of us honestly exited our early education with anything near the level of knowledge of <insert your everybody-should-know topic of choice> as we do now?

In my case, my knowledge is an accretion of years of reading, research and dozing off to late night documentaries on TV. While I know a fair thing or two about select topics, most of that is based on learning I was able to independently acquire because my early learning was effective. While I may not have exited high school knowing every detail of WW2 history, I certainly knew enough to know how to go about finding out more. And this was before Wikipedia! I am thankful that I was taught a good set of fundamental skills enabling a lifetime of learning rather than drilled in rote memorization of facts that I had no interest in at the time (and which are strangely fascinating now). My boys certainly left high school with a deeper knowledge of computers, genetics, biology, chemistry, algebra and calculus than I ever did, not to mention a foreign language. I expect I'll die with them still having acquired more in school on some of those topics than I did over a lifetime.

To suggest even half-seriously that a game company should bear any responsibility for the education of our youth strikes me as about as irresponsible as expecting kids to learn about sex and drugs from TV. To reduce education to something that can be passed along in a set of game rules is, I think, undervaluing the job that educators are asked to do. Getting history right is not trivial!

Let's face it: Most of us have acquired our knowledge in the same way we've acquired our waistlines and dental work -- over years and years of gradual acquisition, not all deliberate. Any kid (and the poster wasn't one, from what I can tell) not knowing the origins of the term can find out in a few seconds, and add that tidbit of knowledge to the reams of trivial stuff he or she will acquire over the next several decades. Knowing that sort of thing off-hand doesn't make us "smarter" than them, just older. Much, much older.

- Bob

(For the record, I'm pocketing the prize. It was really cool, too.)

Greetings fellow wargamers,

I am the topic of the OP, Schwerpunkt

It was a polite trivia question to engender discourse. Something not important and the 4th line was sarcasm used to illuminate the lack of importance.

I am not (chronologically at least) a kid.

I am a retired US Army Officer who presently authors lesson plans and distance learning material for the US Army Command and General Staff College. There is more but it does not matter dramatically.

Here are some considerations when reading posts:

First: There are probably typos in posts. For example "Most people out there now …" was meant to read "know". I missed the K. Additionally, written tone is difficult to convey which is why leadership by e-mail isn't.

Second: Well done and a salute of mutual respect to everyone who wrote positive comments and gave the presumed kid 'the benefit of the doubt'. If I were a kid I would probably be mortified at the bashing comments a perceived teen-ager got from those who he may have once respected.

Third: To the bashers and self-imagined superior posters; for shame! Get over yourself, I fully appreciate that most people have long ago gotten over me, as I myself have.

Fourth: You are not 'smarter' than me or anyone else. I am not 'smarter' than you or anyone else. 'Smarter' is topic related.

Lastly, here is the "crowning in the punchbowl". (General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, played by Stephen Fry, Black Adder Goes Forth, Season IV).

The answer to AXIS I provided is historically accurate and I wager MOST of the bashers DID NOT know it. Yet they bashed.

Anyway, I will be at MG65 (for those out there that know of this event) and look forward to meeting and gaming with you.

Have fun painting, preparing and socializing.

Welcome to TMP, sir.

- Bob

if you're going to build a business with a strong international reach and market around a product rooted in history, and history that is still relatively fresh, then you should make the effort to get some of that history across – which BF do better than any of the other games you mentioned. It's like corporate social responsibility, you gotta pay it forward etc.

ah!.. and that's indeed a wonderful job they do (not so) surreptitiously using the good ol' nazi regalia crap

:-)