"French Revolutionary Period - Miscellaneous ???" Topic

Kevin wrote:
Swords has about 840 footnotes, 340 or so reference cited works, about 190 of those are primary sources. That doesn't count the ones cited in the text. Further, many of the secondary sources are invaluable, such as Fabry's study on the Russian campaign and Morvan's Le Soldat Imperial. Those sources are outstanding and while not primary sources they contain much primary material that is invaluable. I'm quite satisfied with the documentation provided. You don't have to footnote every thought and nuance in a paper, book, or other publication. Needless to say, the book's biography is excellent and quite thorough.

Kevin:
I doubt that anyone is questioning the quality of the sources, primary or secondary, or Etling's stature as a military historian. However, all those outstanding primary and second sources are pretty much useless in this situation because we don't know which or how many of them prompted the details of the paragraph you quoted. In point of fact, if the sources[s] of that information were known, you wouldn't have to defend Etling by saying you trust him and cite his literary and professional history.

And I agree, not every fact or conclusion has to be referenced, [or can be] particularly when the information is generally accepted by the historical community all ready. Whether Elting *should* have documented the source of his information, I don't know.

What I do know is that all his research and outstanding sources are useless to us without any reference, unless we are prepared to read all 340 of them and then guess which evidence in that mass he chose and which he rejected.

And I know you feel Elting's work is of the highest quality--this isn't a general statement about the man's work. In this particular case, there is no practical way to determine that quality.

Best Regards,

Bill H.

Any thoughts on the percentage of a French during the 1796-97 campaign that would have been wearing Casque (Tarleton-type) helmets?

During this Demi-Brigade period, would all Battalions carry a standard, or just the 1st?

From my understanding, the Casque was worn by the pre-Revolutionary army. The regulars continued to wear the white uniform [for the lack of replacements] and the helmets. By the time of the 1794-5 reforms, where two conscript battalions were joined with a regular battalion to form the Demi-brigades, many of the helmets had worn out, but regulars did continue to wear them, though the bicorne had become the 'official' chapeau. So you would see them in the regular battalion, but not in the 2nd and 3rd.

As for the standards, I believe a Demi-brigade had one national color, carried by the regulars, and the two conscript battalions carried the Demi-brigade's colors.

I can look that up if you'd like as I am doing it from memory of putting together my own 1796 armies.

Best Regards,

Bill H.

Oops, the regulars were called the 2nd battalion and carried the Demi-brigade flag.

Bill

The helmet was introduced in 1791 – to all infantry. As it was pointed out the Gardes Nationales and the voluntiers did usually wear the hat.

In the first amalgamation of 1794 – usually two volunteer units and one battalion of the regulars were merged.

I have to look it up, but I think the battalions were completly borken up so one could find in one battalion regulars and volutneers alike.

The colours changed as well, a new system was introduced in 1794.

In 1791 the regulares (made of two battalions) had been issued with new colours, those for the first battalion white with in the upper left quadrant the three national colours, the second battalions a design variable from regiment to the regiment in a certain array of facing colours.
Also at some date the felur de liles had to be replaced by a tricolour design 2nd november 1792).

Those were replaced in 1794 where the second battalion would carry a sort of unique pattern and the 1st and 3rd a specific demi brigade pattern.

Here some images
For the old 1791 to 1794 colours I add some photos from Hollander.

Little is known about the colours of the Garde Nationales (other than those of Paris).

1st bat. 52nd reg.

picture

2nd bat. 26th reg

picture

2nd bat 83rd regiment

picture

2nd batt 96th regiment

picture

and an overview of the old white colonel's colour, that one of the first bat. in 1791 and then finally that of the 2nd demi brigade in 1794

picture

please not, the facing colour devise for the colours of the 2nd battalion were already according to the facing colour decision of 1792 (despite being introduced in 1791) – where all infantry with the exception of the Swiss regiments should wear white coats (even the German regiments who had previously worn bleu clèste foncé.

See also the work by Charrié pages 13 (for facings) and 17 for the set of patterns of the usual 12 identical facing colurs of a slot – like regiments 1 to 12 had black facings, so you have 12 different designs with black for 12 colours of the 2nd battalions.

And in 1796 came a second reogranisation with understrength demi brigades broken up and the former members redistributed to other demi brigades.

There is an excellent book, usually hard to find, by JB Avril, Avantages du Bonne Discipline which in tabular form has the complete list of reorganizations of the French infantry arm from the end of the Old Regime to 1816. I was looking for it for over thirty years and finally got hold of a copy a couple of years ago. I highly recommend it.

Sincerely,
K

Bill,

I can't argue with your reasoning or logic. Good posting.

Sincerely,
K

The 3 battalions (mostly 2 volunteers and 1 regular line) were totally broken up and reformed so the casque wearing men were spread through the whole new battalion. So afaik after the first amalgame the distinction between centre regular and 2 flank volunteer battalions didn't exist anymore.

Duc de L. wrote:
The 3 battalions (mostly 2 volunteers and 1 regular line) were totally broken up and reformed so the casque wearing men were spread through the whole new battalion. So afaik after the first amalgame the distinction between centre regular and 2 flank volunteer battalions didn't exist anymore.

I am not sure that the battalions were 'totally' broken up throughout the French army, or when. The Regulars represented a core of experienced soldiers, and more than one French general feared losing that solid body by diluting them. I know that the regulars held on to their casque as long as they could because it identified the wearer as a regular.

Best Regards,

Bill H.

I tend to agree with the Duc de Limbourg – the first amalgamation is discussed in great detail in

Coutanceau : Campagne de 1794 a l'Armée du Nord, Ier Partie : Organisation, Tome Premier, Paris 1903, pages 405 onwards.

This volume is available on google books.

Why should regulars cling to a helmet which is more uncomfortable to wear than a hat. Moreover the dilution of experienced soldiers started very soon when regulars decided to join the Gardes Nationales due to better payment.

See also :

Scott, Samuel : The Response of the Royal Army to the French Revolution – The Role and Developemnt of the Line Army 1787 – 1893, Oxford 1978

Regular officers as well as regular NCOs were shifted a early stages to volunteer bataillons and vice versa to fill positions.

I did not come across a reference where regulars hold as longs to their helmets as possible only to be identified as regulars (a completly unrevolutionary attitude and against equality) – of course regulars had to wear whatever equipment was provided for them and which was fit for service, in case the white coat would be still in servicable condition, the Republic would not have thrown it away, the same for the helmet.

von W:

The main source for my information is:

R.W. Phipps "The Armies of the First French Republic and the Rise of the Marshals of Napoleon." 5 vols. 1926-1939

When I get to the library, I will look up the exact references concerning the regulars.

Scott does mention the attitudes of the regular infantry in the that remained. While there was a shortage of experienced [line] officers as well as NCOs, many used to build volunteer battalions, the regulars did remain as separate organizations until the Amalgamations--or there wouldn't have been an amalgamation…

The second issue is that all French armies didn't all organize and respond to the Amalgamations in the same way. The Armee du Nord is a good example, and the unique processes to the army are noted in Coutanceau's book.

As you note, to be identified as regulars was a "completly unrevolutionary attitude and against equality". There were many determinedly hierarchical elements of the Royal Army that resisted that brand of 'equality', one reason officers from the Regulars were moved about. The esprit du corps consciously developed within regiments and among career soldiers over decades didn't completely die out in a summer because of a series of laws, reorganization, and the infusion of raw volunteers.

Keeping the helmet was easy to do as there wasn't a profusion of supplies. It separated the soldier from the volunteer who basically wore a civilian's bicorne or the sock cap--if they had one. Phipps does comment on the fact that in 1796, several years after the Amalgamations, white uniforms and helmets were still seen with the Army of Italy--but not the numbers or who had them. "White" uniforms were actually cheaper than blue, which may account for it too…

How prevelant this 'resistance to the New Order' was and in which armies it was seen, I don't know. Perhaps Phipps comments on it.

Best Regards,

Bill H.

Looking forward to what you find in Phipps – or the different Phippses – I completly forgot to look there.

About the white unifrom being more cheaper than the blue – I don't know, in the old Royal Army the white broad cloth was more expensive and did last longer than the coloured coats of the foreign regiments, see the regulations of 1786.

I thought the White uniforms worn by regulars were all blue by the 1796-7 campaign in Italy????

Yes for the Italian campaign in 1796 the vast majority would have worn dark blue coats, when the original white ones were used up, they were replaced by white ones.

But the Republic would not throw away good coats – even in white – as longs as they were servicable.

I have no doubt that the casque was worn in 1796/1797 campaign or possibly even later as some paintings/drawings of this campaign show them. I have my doubt that the white uniform was worn as this was the sign of the old "royal" army. What is mentioned, is that some soldiers made waistcoats/undergarment of their white coat and still wore them. The order to wear blue is from end 1793 so I suppose that after 3 or 4 years the white coat was used up.The casque was prefeerred by light troops (regular and the voluynteer legions etc) so I can imagine that these troops would cling to their old helmets.

this is all difficult to say, the chronica Rovatti of Modena – shows for example all light infantry with hats.

White uniforms being cheaper is true [Part of the reason the French experimented with them in 1807], but I simply mentioned that as a point of interest rather than stating French troops had white coats because of it in 1796.

It is difficult to make general uniform conclusions about the French army 1792-1797 when they were often poorly supplied by a French Government who changed 'regulations' concerning such things on a regular basis, while filled with volunteer units that all could have different uniforms, as well as the different approaches that the various French commanders and their armies took in such matters--such as Napoleon issuing unique new flags to his regiments in 1796.

And paintings of the period didn't necessarily show the real details, from hats to formations, for a whole legion of reasons. Paintings are great for 'air-brushing' the facts…No one really believes all British and Continental women had cupid--bow mouths and big eyes or that all generals stared off camera while pointing troops in another direction all together… ;-j I think the Revolutionary period is a fascinating one for wargaming.

Best Regards,
Bill H.

I did know about the continental women but wasn't shure about the British. Thanks for the info. :-)

Not only were white uniforms cheaper, they were easier to clean.

Sincerely,
K

The main reason for the white uniforms of the 1810 period was a lack of indigo to make the blue dye from the caribean. Maybe Napoleon should have let Toussaint become the Emporer of the Blacks as he wanted, he would have had all the indigo he wanted as well as being a thorn to the British in the Caribean. There are ALOT of wargame figures with the wrong shade of French blue, not enough indigo purple in it.

The white uniforms were for the 1806-1807 period originally. One of the reasons for the uniform test was the lack of indigo and it was expensive. Any French units that were still uniformed in white by 1810-1811 were few and far between.

Sincerely,
K

Manuscrit de l'abbé Rovatti (Cronica Modenese, de 1797 à 1817).

Cronaca modonese prepared by Antonio Rovatti and held in the Archivio storico, Modena.

Published so far:

"Modena Napoleonica nella cronaca di Antonio Rovatti":
volume 1: l ìalbero della libertà 1796-1797
volume 2: Modena Repubblicana 1798-1799
volume 3: Dall ìaquila imperiale al ritorno dei Francesi 1799-1801
volume 4: Indici della Cronaca Moldones, 1796-1801 / a cura di Gian Paolo Brizzi.

Illustration (1815):

picture

Ussaro dell'Armata d'Italia, 1796:

link

Capo, the purple spectrum of indigo fades very quickly. Look at how quickly the deep, nearly violet, blue of traditional denim jeans dyed with indigo fades to a medium blue.

Gotta love this place. Excellent place to learn and hear good debate

Since this post is still going I have another question

How do you think facing colors should be handled in Jan 1797 after the 2d Amalgam? Also flags, as the "Armee d Italie" flags were not distributed until mid-year? I have the chart of facings for 1794 per Bn/Regt.

The blue french uniform of 1793 onwards had only one "facing" color; red

Actually for the line infantry there were two as the lapels were white. They are also facings.

Sincerely,
K

So the "Regimental Distinctions 1 April 1791" and the 15 January 1792 Modifications are totally ignored by 1796?

Also, there are charts of distinctions for the French uniform used in Egypt. I understand the Egyptian uniform was a total redo.

So in 1796-97 Germany and Italy, all Ligne would have the same uniform
Blue Coats
Red Collars, piping white
Red Cuffs, with piping white
White Lapels, with piping red

Kevin, of course you are right, lapels were white. Duke Wacoan, the 1791/1792 destictions were used for the white uniforms with the different regimental colours. These were "formally at least" changed with the 1793 introduction of the blue uniform.
Also, the uniform you describe is the formal uniform but in the field anything could and was used as the unform was usuals in shambles.
And you are right that after one or two years, the uniforms of the French army in Egypt wat sotally redone, with different color coats and facings and a leather casquet

The Egyptian uniform was a redo, there was a discussion about it wether it should be more oriental or more European, the European fraction won.

First they were made out of cotton and later then in the multi coloured woolen coats.

In Italy 1796 the bulk should have worn the then traditional dark blue coat with red collar piped white, white lapels piped red, red cuffs piped white and a variation of cuff flaps, like dark blue piped red, or red piped white, or even just a slash piped red.

The light infantry had an entirely different uniform.

Since Elite and Eureka don't have Light uniforms available, any ideas on conversion of their Ligne figures?

I was thinking of making do with some surplus grenadiers in bicorne myself.

Looks like the Eureka Grenadiers have fringed shoulder bars, short swords and bayonet holders, plus the grenade on the ammo pouch. That is the only differences I can note from the Fusiliers.

for a description in the osprey (napoleon's light infantry) go to
link

Eureka does have lights in the 100club listings so look like they will eventually produce them. Probably quicker if more sign up for some.

I personally am hoping that by the time I have finished my ligne troops the lights will be out.

Saw that. Looks like the Eureka Legere are all pretty much over 100 already, so they are probably coming soon. Eureka appears to be doing a good job getting the line out. I received some Elite's today, and looks like some of them might also work for variation. Elite's new Chasseurs a cheval in particular should work, plus Perry's new plastic Hussars are supposed to have sufficient options to do Revolutionary uniforms for Hussars.

I believe Eureka may have French CaC and Austrian Chevauxlegers out sooner than later.

Yes, by the time I get through the pile of fusiliers and grenadiers in front of me I wouldn't be surprised if Eureka had time to finish the entire line!

The biggest difference are the lapels, which are pointed for the light infantry – headress – in 1795 / 96 could be the hat as well.

For 1792 the uniform as such was identical in cut and shape as for the line units, only the coat collar was different which was dark green.

In case I remeber correctly in 1793 the uniform was then changed to pointed lapels and dark blue.