"German intervention in Middle East (1941) - what if" Topic

In 1941 Germany and Italy sent some Bf 110s and CR 42s to support Iraq. Do you know if some more consistent military aid was planned, or possible?

I was toying with the idea of making one hypotethical WW2 armoured "Asien-Korps" to fight the British and Soviets in Iraq / Iran, and supporting the Vichy French in Syria. But I would not make "another" Afrika Korps. What equipment could they use, instead of Pz III and IVs? Captured French tanks?
Who would be the commander, etc…

your suggestions for an "historical" background and order of battle are appreciated… thank you

Leo Kessler wrote two of his SS fiction novels about this. Assault on Baghdad has the SS and Iraqi's in co-hoots.

link

And Operation Iraq

link

There was an interesting mix of early war weapons in the invasion of Persia (including Iranian Panzer 38s), so this would make an interesting scenario. And cutting off the rail route for lend-lease to the USSR could have made a huge difference.

Orient Korps? That was the name used in Gear Krieg for such an expedition, which got cut off from the Levant, bashed up in Iraq, withered in Persia, then finally ends up as some small desperate cells in India. I think the OK manages to incite a minor rebellion there…

One problem would be Vichy. They turned down German offers of assistance. Remember, they were not allied with Germany. Officially, they were neutral. Without Vichy participation, supply lines would be untenable as well. Any German forces would eventually wither on the vine, as it were.

Hmmm, well, you could postulate a successful German conquest of the Caucasus region (maybe they resisted the temptation to attack Stalingrad and just masked it), eliminating the Red Navy from the Black Sea. This plus a lot of diplomatic pressure and numerous bribes brings Turkey into the War with hopes of regaining control of some of the Arab lands. NOW you have a supply line of sorts. The Turks could provide most of the infantry (as the Italians did in N. Africa), and the Germans just send some panzers and some planes.

As for hardware: Pz 38(t)s vs. M3 Stuart/Honeys might be interesting.

Also, when the Allies landed in French N. Africa the Germans invaded and occupied Vichy France. Had the above scenario been in effect, the Germans/Turks would want to occupy Syria and Lebanon as well (more bribes for the Turks). There they would find a few French tanks (probably mostly light and old) that they could add to their forces.

Here's another "what-if" scenario for you: Suppose that when the Allies invade French N. Africa the French take more umbrage than they actually did, and join the Axis side in order to defend their turf. That puts French forces in Syria and Lebanon at war with the Brits in Iraq, Iran, Palestine, and Egypt!

Don – the 1941 French in Syria & Lebanon WERE at war with the British/Commonwealth – my late father and his friends among them.

I have a vague recollection of seeing something about the Germans trying to convince the Vichy French & the Turks to allow them to overfly or refuel aircraft in their territory, but were refused. The British decided not to take any chances & invaded Syria/Lebanon.

The Brits and Free French invaded Syria on June 8th, 1941 (Operation Exporter) – they managed to defeat the Vichy French by July 12th, 1941 – the Allied forces included two Free French brigades, 7th Australian division, 10th Indian division, 4th Cavalry brigade and the Arab Legion under Glubb Pasha – the Vichy French (Army of the Levant) had seven regular infantry battalions, eleven battalions of colonial troops and about 5,000 cavalry and mobile troops

The Germans offered support, but General Henri Dentz, commmander of the Army of the Levant, declined – for the "what if", suppose he said yes – the Ju52s fly in, the Stukas accompany them, and the Brits and Free French get kicked back to Palestine – opening up the road to the Persian Gulf

Lots of scope for campaigns/battles there

Learn something new every day!

"…suppose he said yes – the Ju52s fly in, the Stukas accompany them…"

There's the rub. With the Royal Navy firmly in control of the Eastern Med, the only reinforcments/resupply for Syria is flying in. Stukas or no, the French run out of ammunition pretty soon.

But suppose the Turks allow supplies to be shipped through their territory. Suppose the Germans supply fuel and the French Navy sorties from Toulon, and links up with the Italian fleet…

Probably not. The French had fought three bloody wars against the Germans and had no heart to ally with the Reich. The French Army was mostly in German PW cages.

What heavy equipment could the Germans be able to transport in the Middle East over Ju52s? Could they carry a btg. of Pz38t? :-) (say yeees, please?)

"Any German forces would eventually wither on the vine, as it were."

Nah…dont be silly….Goering would use the Luftwaffe to keep them supplied like he did at…..at….errrrrr…..

Oh…yes….Stalingrad….

Yep….they would wither on the vine for sure!

No, the JU-52 could not carry the 38t. However the ME 321 glider could. It was operational in May 41 so would just make the cut off. It was a lumbering beast however and doubtful would have been very successful for that long a trip. The 323 (321 with 6 engines) didnt become operational until Sept 42 so a bit late for the scenario.

More realistic would be if Hitler had had a flash of inspiration and sent over to Rommel enough troops and supplies to fight in Egypt and maybe cross Suez--With the canal taken Britain would have had a massive headache and the RN in the Med would have been forced back to Beruit or Cyprus…With Rommel and Panzer Armee Afrika rampaging through the middle east perhaps Hitler would have ignored Stalingrad and ordered a push into the Caucasus and a link up in Persia???

Oh fantastic, ME 321 gliders flying from Syria and carrying some Panzers, Flak 88, and artillery … plus Ju 87 with German Paratroopers… and of course Stukas… I can see the possibility of one "Asian-Korps" in 1941 Iraq… at least on my gaming table!

"Oh fantastic, ME 321 gliders flying from Syria and carrying some Panzers, Flak 88, and artillery …"

You might want to factor this into your planning:

"In the final weeks of the North African campaign in April/May 1943, 43 Gigants were lost, along with much greater numbers of Ju 52s. A demonstration of its frailty occurred on 22 April 1943 when a flight of 14 Me 263s were intercepted by P-40s. All 14 were shot down, whilst a flight of seven Bf 109s from JG 27 tried to to defend them, the escorts accounted for three of the P-40s."

Excerpted from a post on this site (scroll down to the ME 323):

link

Loaded, the 323 topped out at 155 mph. They were huge, slow and unwieldly. In short, without complete air superiority, they were flying coffins. An air bridge in the Med in '41 would be out of the question.

Ok I have another plan :-)

In year 1938 Iran had about 100 TNH tanks, that were an early, tropicalized version of Pz 38t, and other 200 on order, but not delivered. During 1941, the tanks were kept back to defend Teheran and were not used in combat.

Let's assume that Germany send well trained crews for these tanks and take them, to "defend" Persia against the British and Soviet oppressors… What about it? Could have worked?

"Let's assume that Germany send well trained crews for these tanks and take them, to "defend" Persia against the British and Soviet oppressors… What about it? Could have worked?"

No one in the middle east in 1941 was refining oil. They were shipping out crude oil in tankers, shipping refined gasoline and diesel back in. In order to sustain operations for more than a couple of weeks the Axis would need a robust, secure sea or rail supply line to bring in bulk fuel and ammunition.

If the Germans had been able to sieze the Soviet Baku refineries, these would have been massively sabotaged and would have taken at least a few months to get back into production. After that, Axis operations in the middle east might have been feasible.

Supply was a major problem in North Africa too. The Axis could barely ship supplies across the narrowest part of the Med; often their freighters couldn't get through for weeks on end. In order to win in North Africa the Axis needed to give the Italian Navy enough fuel for major fleet operations and for bigger, more frequent convoy escorts, and needed to invade Malta to clear out that British air base. There was no need or use to put more Axis troops in North Africa, the formations already there would have been much more effective if properly supplied.

The US proved in China that, even with American industrial resources, you couldn't airlift enough fuel into a theater to sustain operations. Remember that in 1942, Chiang Kai-shek committed his two best armies, the ones with artillery, and his only mechanized division to defending Burma, which wasn't even Chinese territory. The Chinese recognized that if the Burma Road was cut there would be no fuel to operate those tanks, so may as well commit them to defend their supply line. In the event the Chinese tanks and artillery were lost with Burma and the China theater shut down for the duration until the Burma Road reopened. Lack of supply meant that only guerilla operations could be sustained in China.

Logistics dictated that the Axis could not operate on any serious scale in the near or middle east in 1941.

There's also some more potential twists: in 1939, the French government was nice enough as to hand over the Syrian province of Alexandretta to Turkey (borders the upper-right hand corner of the Med). Just like that, they gave away something that didn't really belong to them. Causes no end of grief to the modern Syrians, who would really like Turkey to give it back.

Anyhow, as an admittedly improbable miniature campaign, what if the not-insignificant Vichy French forces in Syria decided that it was time to take the province back. What kind of tanks did the Turks have?

Hmmm, well, you could postulate a successful German conquest of the Caucasus region (maybe they resisted the temptation to attack Stalingrad and just masked it), eliminating the Red Navy from the Black Sea.

That's not quite in the 1941 timeframe tho…..

and Alexandretta was never really part of Syria – it was a semi-autonomous province within the French Mandate, then an independant republic from 1938-39, before voting to join Turkey – unsurprising given 70% of hte voters were Turkish.

that the Syrians fancy "owning" it is pretty dodgy!