"Fall In 2010 at the Host?!?!..." Topic

Just saw an announcement at HMGS online that Fall-In 2010 is going to be held the last weekend of October at The Host and NOT the Eisenhower.
Is this true, and just to stir the pot…Why the change???

It had to do with the Ike not wanting to work with HMGS on price and on amenities such as food. Plus it makes it far more attractive to the Host if we have two shows there rather than one.

I'm not on the BOD, so don't know anything about the why, but I am running FALL-IN! this year, and next if I don't get fired. 2010 will be at the Host in Lancaster. The event falls so that the Sunday of the show is Halloween. This was a product of moving the show, and someone else already having the spot we were looking for. I have been told by the BOD that in 2011 and 2012, which we have tentative contracts for, will be back to their normal weekend, away from Halloween.

As to the why, again, I don't know, but my take on it is this, The Eisenhower has been unresponsive in working with us to improve the food service there. We had several meetings prior to FALL-IN! 2008, and no changes were made at that show. In addition, there is the cost issue. I have not yet seen the contract for the Host for next fall, but I have the current contracts for the Eisenhower, and I can tell you that renting the Ike and All-Star for FALL-IN! is more expensive than renting the Host for Historicon. I would have to assume that the Host will be even cheaper than what we pay for Historicon in July.

There is also the fact that our largest turn out of historical gamers was at the FALL-IN! after Timonium, in Lancaster. Timonium had more total attendance, but many of them were 5 dollar 1-day GW gamers. FALL-IN! in Lancaster had the largest number of "regulars".

Remember, these are my opinions as a gamer, and not as a representative of HMGS…

And pass the popcorn and salt down this way!

Andy

I for one am glad for the move. I like the charm of cons set at the Host, both as a dealer and as a gamer. I've been to Fall In at the Ike and flatly don't like it. The rooms are even more dingy and the atmosphere is gloomy. This is no reflection on the con, just the venue. Not to say ATKM won't be at Fall In 2009 -- we will be. I just look forward to the show at the Host.

That said, Andy, the free demo tables at Fall In are a real benefit of your show. Please try to keep them at the Host in 2010.

I'm quite pleased with this change even though Gettysburg is much more convenient from both a flying and driving perspective. The Host offers everything in one building and unless overloaded in summer heat, is generally better in most respects. The food at the Ike is simply bad resulting in lost gaming time due to the drive into town and at some point, the battlefield loses its' charm after x+1 visits.

And then there was one.

I knew this was coming.

FALL IN was my favorite East-Con. I always went down a day early to tour around the town and battlefield. I will miss Gettysburg.

My convention going in 2010 is now down to one. I will not be going to Baltimore for H-Con and with FALL IN on Halloween (my favorite holiday, we have a big party at my place with the whole house and yard done up) I will miss that one also.

I guess I better get my buying in at FALL IN '09 and COLD WARS '10.

This will be my first Fall In this year. It's a tough time of year for me with the holidays and work, so I often can't make it.

Obviously, I can't speak to the pros/cons of the Ike, but I can say that Cold Wars at the Host is a great con. It's the right number of people for the space and is not overly crowded as is Historicon. I would imagine Fall In to be the same and look forward to it in 2010.

There's always other view points. For me this will be my last Fall In until it returns to Gettysburg (if money allows). The Host is a musty smelly dive and I've had to stay in plenty of these the last 20 years of work, when I chose I don't. The Cold Wars when the power went out was the last for me.

Plus the Gettysburg area offered so much to do that I could always talk my family into comeing along, making Fall In a family vacation. They are not impressed with the Lancaster area and will not join me at anything held at the host. However the door is open now for Historcon in Baltimore.

Losing power at Cold Wars wasn't the Hosts fault.

There was a major storm that knocked out power in the whole area.

Halloween -- this is a big family day for me. Please say this is not the case. H'Con on Independence Day is already a problem. Next we'll have Cold Wars on Easter. Don't organizers think about these things???

Fall-in at Gettysburg on a day other than Halloween would be better than Halloween at the Host! I was looking forward to Fall in in Lancaster -- roast pig, bbq sandwiches, Friendlys near by and all the other good things.

Historicon will be on Independence Day in Baltimore?
Are those clowns deliberately trying to destroy Historicon?
Say it ain't so… Going out of your way to conflict with family holidays????

BTW, there is a precedent for having Cold Wars at Easter. Back when I was a sci-fi convention goer, the New York convention was Luna-Con. (I think) My impression was that it was always held on Passover/Easter weekend. I suspected that due to the secular nature on NY sci-fi fans that this was deliberate. "Screw families and the religious!" seemed to be the motto of that con.

One of the reasons I went to Fall-In! was not only Gettysburg but also because it landed near enough to Veterans day and my birthday that it made that convention special.

As crappy as the Host is and moving it from Gettysburg, I can live with that. But not moving the date into October. That means FI 2009 is my last until or if the date ever gets back to around early-mid November.

The Historicon date is actually better for me, so 2010 looks like it'll be Historicon only for me. Odd how that years schedule is working out.

Honestly, I'll miss Gettysburg. The current renovation/restoration project made each trip the last few years an exciting opportunity to re-visit the battlefield.

I didn't stay at the Ike, so the rooms were a non-issue for me. The food…well it'd be nice to get a good, affordable meal on site. I think I scored a decent deli sandwich on Saturday night, but the kid behind the counter looked exhausted. Fortunately, I could eat during one of the day trips out and about the town/battlefield.

If its that much cheaper, I understand the economics of re-locating to Lancaster. I'm not thrilled, but I understand it.

The Ohio State University gaming group held a CAPCON on Easter weekend one year back in the 80's. It was horrid – low attendance and a handful of games.

I seem to recall that National Model UN held its meeting Easter weekend as well. It was fine except for lots of stuff being closed on Easter Sunday.

Well, it seems the current BOD is completly Charlie Foxtrot. I enjoy very much going to Fall In in Gettysburg for a number of reasons unrelated to the show itself, the renovation to the filed is truely magnificent. I have no desire to attend Fall In in Lancaster and won't be going. I'm not going to the DMZ that is Baltimore despite it being closer than Lancaster. From what I've heard from the dealers at Historicon it looks like Baltimore is being done on a wing and a prayer….mainly prayer. And as long as Williamsburg Muster keeps going I don't see the need to go to Cold Wars. So, for the forseeable future, it looks like no HMGS East cons for me.

HCon 2010 is July 8-11, so the weekend after Independence day.

Don't forget that the Ike charges something like 10K to rent the All Star and one of the big compaints about the site is the walk from the hotel to the All Star. That said I would have prefered they did not move the convention but hey, I am not on the board and you all elected those who wanted to move it!
VR
James Mattes

I will miss going to G'burg in Nov. Do love driving around the natl park early on those crisp Fall mornings…

From what HMGS friends have told me is that the move is all due to cost at the Eisenhower.

On the bright side, I sure do love the Roast Pig the HOST serves at thier cons.

SFC Retired

Obviously, I will miss giving tours of the battlefield to my friends who come to Fall-In from out of town. I am a historian and author first, and a gamer second, so Gettysburg for me is an obvious draw versus the Host. That said, I will certainly attend Fall-In in Lancaster; it's an easy drive from my home in York.

"That said, Andy, the free demo tables at Fall In are a real benefit of your show. Please try to keep them at the Host in 2010."

I will do my best; I know several of the vendors like this set-up, as well as a good number of attendees. The Tennis Barn in Lancaster is smaller than the All-Star, but I am unsure of exactly how much smaller at this time. I will know more this winter when FALL-IN! 2009 is behind us, and I can start looking forward…

"Plus the Gettysburg area offered so much to do that I could always talk my family into comeing along, making Fall In a family vacation. They are not impressed with the Lancaster area and will not join me at anything held at the host."

I know there will be people upset about moving away from Gettysburg, nothing I can do about that, but there will also be people happy about moving to Lancaster, so only time will tell. I know that on a personal level, my wife is thrilled to move to Lancaster, as she intends to do her Christmas shopping while there. She currently goes to Gettysburg for 1 day, and then bails from boredom. Anyway, point is, to each their own, some will be happy, some not so much so, but like Hcon in Baltimore; the show will go on for those who choose to come…

"Halloween -- this is a big family day for me. Please say this is not the case. H'Con on Independence Day is already a problem. Next we'll have Cold Wars on Easter. Don't organizers think about these th"ings???"

Well, Halloween is not a big holiday for me, but I have already been informed by my wife that I will be home early that Sunday to partake in the toddlers festivities. Please note though that we will be back to our normal schedule after this one show. Obviously, I would prefer that even this one show would not be on a holiday weekend, but that is not within my control…

"As crappy as the Host is and moving it from Gettysburg, I can live with that. But not moving the date into October. That means FI 2009 is my last until or if the date ever gets back to around early-mid November."

As I posted in my original post, The show will be returning to its regularly scheduled time after the first year, so while this will be an issue in 2010, it will not be so in 2011 or 2012.

"From what HMGS friends have told me is that the move is all due to cost at the Eisenhower."

Like I said above, the cost for FALL-IN! in Gettysburg is more expensive than Historicon in Lancaster. That is a big deal in my mind, and makes this move something akin to a necessity in my mind, but again, that is just my opinion; I cannot make official statements for the organization.

While I would certainly consider attending a Fall In in Lancaster, especially given that I will not be going to Baltimore, sadly the weekend of Halloween is an absolute deal breaker for me.

I know the hard working convention directors have little control on dates and locations. Andy, best of luck running the show, and when the stars are in the proper alignment I'll see you there. When the moon is in the Seventh House And Jupiter aligns with Mars…

I hope to be able to do the 2010 Fall In. Halloween is a non-issue since our kids are grown and we have not had a trick or treater in 4 years. My wife is more likely to go to Lancaster, our room at Fall-In last year had a horrible musty smell, worse than enything we experienced at the Host even in the Host's down years.
Hopefully we can get a real good deal on rooms.

It's a sad, sad day when the food at the Host is considered an upgrade!

Seriously, the lack of food I consider palatable is a major reason I think twice about going to cons. Though I am a food snob. But still.

Thanks goodness there is at least a Panera not too far so I can get a decent sandwich.

Mmmmmm, Panera's…

Whew, I misremembered the H'COn date. Glad it is week after I-Day.

Yes Schogun, H'Con is the weekend after the 4th BUT the 4th is Sunday so the Holiday will be Monday so the 3rd most traveled day in the USA( Road and air)will be Tuesday6th ,my normal fly out day to H'Con. Anyone coming from distance is going to have a hassle.
MHO,
Clif

Please cut the Baltimore DMZ stuff, and negative talk unless you live there, or have been there recently and have some kind of knowledge to impart. My eighteen year old son frequents the Inner Harbor with his girlfriend, and friends frequently, and they have had no problems. The million visitors who come every year to see the Inner Harbor, Convention Center, Constellation, Torsk, Aquarium, Science Center, Fort McHenry don't seem to have that problem. Having been born in Baltimore, having family live there by the Inner Harbor, and being 20 minutes from the Inner Harbor/Convention Center, I have not had that problem.

Oh, on Saturday at the Host, when I left for lunch, the traffic was backed up out the Whazoo, almost was hit while trying to cross the street, and an Amish guy tried to mug me…

And as long as Williamsburg Muster keeps going I don't see the need to go to Cold Wars. So, for the forseeable future, it looks like no HMGS East cons for me.

Have the hotel, have the vendors, working on more tables as we have more space, and expecting 300+ attendees. So the future is set for the first weekend in February 2010.

Justin
Williamsburg Muster staff
link

"Please cut the Baltimore DMZ stuff, and negative talk unless you live there, or have been there recently and have some kind of knowledge to impart."

I have been there relativly recently. As long as you stay in the inner harbor there are enough police assigned down there to keep the trash out. Being a police officer I spoke with some of them and can safely say if you get a few blocks from the waterfront it is a dangerous town. Also, only a block from the harbor I saw what I recognized as a drug deal and hookers. So no, I will not subject my family to that.

Where exactly did you go one block from the Harbor? Were you looking for this? Did you hit the block? Did you ask the police officer to point them out? How many major cities do you not go to so as not to subject your family? Again, it is a great place, but in any great place, you will find trouble. As a police officer, I would imagine you of all people would know this.

"Oh, on Saturday at the Host, when I left for lunch, the traffic was backed up out the Whazoo…"

You should know better than trying to leave the Host during the hours of 9 am – 9 pm. A self-imposed curfew will make your Rte 30 crossing experience more enjoyable, and safer.

Personally, I crossed at around 7 am, once again at 8:30 am, and a final time at around midnight. Was no problem crossing at any of those times, though by 8:30, the volume was getting started.

I'm sure if I left the BCC after 9pm there won't be any traffic either.

You guys are a constant source of entertainment, I'll give you that.

Trying to compare the "traffic" and the "crime scene" in Lancaster vs Baltimore is priceless.

If you go out the back of the hotel and hang a right, it will take you down a road that leads you out to a traffic light, which gets you right onto route 30.

So that MASSIVE traffic jam problem is now solved for future reference.

Just priceless.

Trying to compare the "traffic" and the "crime scene" in Lancaster vs Baltimore is priceless.

'Tis no joke:

Lancaster's property crime levels tend to be much higher than Pennsylvania's average level. The same data shows violent crime levels in Lancaster tend to be much higher than Pennsylvania's average level.

Property crime rate per 100,000 people in 2006 was 5,773 (Note: Baltimore in 2006 had a property crime rate of 5,070). Interesting.

Baltimore "wins" on violent crimes, but the vast majority tends to be drug and gang related.

But you are not in the city of Lancaster when you are the host. In fact, you are about 8 or 10 miles to the downtown (from a quick estimate). The township/suburb the Host is located in has a very low rate as does the remainder of the county.

BTW, a traffic light is planned in front of the host. A neighboring shopping center is planned and where required to install it as a proffer for their approval. New hotels going in and some older ones are being replaced. I expect to see many improvements over the next few years.

The township/suburb the Host is located in has a very low rate as does the remainder of the county.

Facts to back this up, or am I asking for too much?

Actually, property crime rates tend to be higher in areas with a lot of tourism, relatively speaking. That stretch of Route 30, with all those run down hotels/motels and shopping outlets probably should not be included as "rural" or "suburban" at all.

"If you go out the back of the hotel and hang a right, it will take you down a road that leads you out to a traffic light, which gets you right onto route 30."

I don't have a problem making turns onto 30, but on the way into Lancaster I was stuck on 30 for about 40 minutes to go 10-15 miles. That's as bad as the worst Manhattan traffic I've experienced.

All the hotels are run down along route 30? Really?

All as in every single one?

Gee, I haven't found that to be the case, but what do I know, I've only been going to the cons there for 11 years and have stayed in just about all of them at one time or another.

That said, I've never, ever, ever (as in not once) had a problem with crime at any of the hotels, restaurants, outlet malls, in the dealer parking lot behind the tennis barn, period.

No muggings, break ins of room or vehicle, nothing.

As in never.

How's that for facts?

Please stop trying to compare the crime in Lancaster to Baltimore.

Enough already.

NYC, I can't speak for the traffic heading into Lancaster itself, but to be fair, I've seen that road and can imagine it to be a hassle at rush hour on a Friday.

I usually head off in the other direction to grab dinner, there are some great out of the way places off of the main drag heading in that direction……………

Can we steer this conversation BACK onto the Original Subject please?

Yeah sure, but I'm not the one who hijacked the thread.

I think moving the con to the Host is a great idea, the dealer hall at the Ike is a ghost town for the most part, with more dealers than attendees wandering around at certain times during the weekend.

And I love Gettsyburg, don't get me wrong, but the move to the Host is a good idea IMO.

There, back on track.

All the hotels are run down along route 30? Really?
All as in every single one?

I didn't say that. Reread my post.

Gee, I haven't found that to be the case, but what do I know, I've only been going to the cons there for 11 years and have stayed in just about all of them at one time or another.

Been going to Historicon a lot longer than you and stayed in many of the dirt bag hotels/motels along Route 30. I've had one or two stays that were decent. In order to get a good hotel room you have to travel at least 2-3 miles away from the Host (e.g. Courtyard by Marriott out on Greenfield Rd (sp??))

That said, I've never, ever, ever (as in not once) had a problem with crime … How's that for facts?

Doesn't mean anything. Anecdotal evidence does not add to the discussion--if that were the case then the thread on TMP about recent thefts at the Historicon would contradict your assertion.

Please stop trying to compare the crime in Lancaster to Baltimore.

I'm not trying. I've succeeded in demonstrating that Lancaster actually has a higher property crime rate than Baltimore, according to FBI stats. I guess you'll have to ask the FBI to stop publishing crime stats for the areas in question.

Can we steer this conversation BACK onto the Original Subject please?

This is far more interesting.

Back to the topic: Yes. Host would be OK for Fall In since it's a much smaller convention. I like the Gettysburg area over Lancaster (battlefield is an added bonus), but the facilities are "six of one, half dozen of the other" as between the two locations.

"This is far more interesting."

No it's not.

And the Red Roof across the street is hardly a dump.

Fall In will do just fine, will be a better con in the long run at the Host.

I fully recognize that many gamers are attracted to Gettysburg and it is a big draw for Fall In. I could take it or leave it, but this isn't the first time we've picked up our marbles and left the Ike in a huff…the first time was when we ended up in Timonium and in the aftermath ended up at the Host, where, as someone pointed out, Fall In did very well. After apparently lots of unfullfilled promises and complaints about three East conventions at the Host, we went back to the Ike, only to find ourselves faced with the same problems.

I won't miss the Ike and with the Baltimore experiment upon us I think Fall In will do well in Lancaster for 2010 and 2011, even with a Halloween conflict in 2010…but then what? If Baltimore fails, as I believe it will and the East brain trust activates their Host return option for Historicon 2012 we're back to three conventions at the Host, which I don't think is sustainable. Cold Wars ain't moving so Fall In once again becomes the orphan. Let's look on the bright side, this might be the opportunity to move to some of the other potential convention sites…like, (no, not Vegas) Fredericksburg.

db

Fredericksburg would be a great spot should the need arise to move the con.

Has Antietam ever been considered for Fall In at any point?

I may be misplaced as the voice of reason but this crime argument has gotten silly. One, clearly an urban setting is going to have more of a threat of crime and, just as important, the perception of a threat. Two, it is a grossly overblown factor in either case. BCC is not Beirut and while Baltimore is a city with more than its share of nasty neighborhoods I suspect all of the happy HMGS convention goers will be just fine darting back and forth to the hall and their hotels.

I am totally against the move but I really think the crime issue is a waste of time. And an even bigger waste of time to argue if Lancaster is more of a crime threat.

I also like Gettysburg but I think this move works for the same reasons the Baltimore one has challenges. Logistics.

HMGS knows how to put on a good convention at the Host. It may be a dump but the setup and layout work well and the staff knows how to work it.

The Ike is as much a dump as the Host. The hotel/All Star combo is not a good layout. The separation breaks the feel and flow of the con, imo. As noted, the dealer hall is usually deserted.

I do suspect that Fall In and Cold Wars will see overflow attendance from Hcon dropouts. So moving Fall In to a better logistical setup makes sense to me.

Also, as for the comment that all the hotels on 30 are dumps, I do disagree. I couple are pretty good. many are dumps. But what exactly do you think the hotel that was listed at $45 USD in the Baltimore propaganda pamphlet is like? The Four Seasons? I suspect the only thing you can get from room service is a crack pipe.

Nope, sorry, I've read your posts; you are the voice of reason throughout of all this nonsense.

Like it or not.

And as far as Historicon being a two year experiment at the BCC and eventually moving back to the Host; as someone who has been against this move from the beginning, that is not going to happen and it would be a mess if it did.

From what I have heard, several huge tournaments, including the national FOW tournament, all 100 tables worth, will be setting up shop at the BCC in 2010.

There is nowhere for such a tournament to set up shop at the Host, so the BCC IMO will be the new home for Historicon for many years to come, which in the end is probably the best thing for the hobby.

Those are the facts; doesn't mean I have to like them, but a change of venue for Historicon at this point is a necessary evil…………

Double G,

Two responses…I actually heard exactly the opposite about the FOW tournament…that it is not going to BCC in 2010. Perhaps that changed.

Second, I have it on good authority that East does have potential dates reserved for post 2012 at the Host but they have to exercise their option very soon after the 2010 BCC Historicon, so someone has got to decide the pull the plug.

db

And an even bigger waste of time to argue if Lancaster is more of a crime threat.

Exactly my point. It's never been the argument that Lancaster should not be considered for future cons because its crime rate is higher than Baltimore (at least as far as property crime), but that ruling out Baltimore because of crime rates is not the best argument considering that Lancaster (according to crime stats) rates right up there with Baltimore as far as theft and other such crimes. I simply challenge the assumptions.

Would I go to Lancaster for Historicon if it remained there, or returned? Yes. However, I am not one to foreclose something because of some preconceived notions or prejudices against one setting or the other. That's why I will probably go to Fall In when it moves to Lancaster. If the Eisenhower has gotten far too expensive for a convention of Fall In's size, then the move to Lancaster is probably a good one.

A couple of folk have noted how good FI at the Host was, after Timonium. Actually, FI2002 was at the Host and FI2003 was the one at Timonium. FI2002 at the Host was a target of opportunity because of the contract difficulties for 2002 encountered with the Ike at/around FI2001. The Host, as I understand it, had the right weekend open in 2002 due to a cancellation and the cost of the Host was just under 1/2 the cost of the Ike (~ $5K at the Host vs ~ $10K for the Ike). Previous observations stand about the success of FI2002 at the Host. Despite the cat show in the Lampeter Room that weekend… ;-)

Bill Rutherford