"New combat idea - your thoughts : be nice..!!!" Topic

I`m getting into ACW and using my new 28mm perry figures, and was planning to base them 4 to a stand for infantry etc.

I may use Battlecry rules ( avalon hill ) but something came into my head the other day and want your thoughts please..

Units have 2 abilities
TRAINING
BRAVERY

Both are tests based on a 4+ pn D6 when needed

And 3 skills

FIREPOWER
MELEE
DEFENCE

The above 3 for infantry are

FIREPOWER 2D6
MELEE 1D6
DEFENCE 1D6

So…
When shooting Inf vs Inf, the attacker rolls 2D6 FP, Against 1D6 Def

And this combat table came to mind

Attacker dice is better the Defence

1 higher : Casualies, unit needs to make a bravery test

2 higher : Heavy casualties, unit " WEAKENED "

3 higher : Unit Destroyed or fled battlefield

So no need to keep a tally with damaged markers or remove any stand from the battlefield until they are Destroyed, all you need is a counter saying " WEAKENED "

BOUNUSES

Unit weakened or flanked : + 1D6 to Attacker
Using cover : + 1D6 to defence

As you see at the start of a battle a unit of infantry can only score a max of 2 hits in a standed firefight, but if a unit is weakeded or flanked, the extra + 1D6 can cause 3 hits and the end of the unit..?

As for the Bravery test, a failed roll could be a move backwards, or maybe a failed test table with a D6 list of options from falling back alittle to alot…?

IE/

D6

1 OR 2 Panic, d6 / 1-3 -1d6 FP or 4-6, cannot move next turn, or change
3 OR 4 fall back 6" only
5 OR 6 Run away 12", needs to " Rally "

So only 2 counters on the table WEAKENED AND PANICED ?

Thanks for reading, your thoughts and ideas on the above…

I think you need to provide a more comprehensive example. My gut feel is that this could be quite bloody.

I agree it would be potentially bloody. I think "weakened" units would have a very short life-expectancy.

The system is a neat idea, however.

I would have concerns that things could get very out of balance once you start having to add in extra modifiers or bonuses (attacked in flank, charging, cannister).

How about sticking with rolling "x" nuber of d6, but each side takes its single best roll and compare them:

Difference of 0-1 = no effect, 2-3 = take bravery test, 4-5 = weakened (destroyed if already weakened)

Would that still give you a simple enough system with less chance of everything being dead by turn 3? There are lots of ways of varying it (more or less d6, add or subtract modifiers from the final score, different comparison charts)

Hope this is of interest!

I can see where maybe the attacker would have more FP, but then are you going to add in modifiers such as entrenchments, cover, and things that really gave people problems like Henry Rifles?

I see a high body count here…

This is really quite a neat idea, there are various other rules which use a similar status tracking system, my own nineteenth century rules track status as 'OK', 'Disordered' and 'Disbanded' at a formation level although there is a bit of casualty removal in there as well (each formation is composed of a number of elements an each element can take two hits). Units which are disordered are at a disadvantage in combat, but they do have a chance to recover as well, but another bad result and they are disbanded and busy running for the rear clogging everything up (so much more fun to leave the routers on, it also gives cavalry something to overrun).

Why not set up a sample scenario and try your ideas out? I often go through several iterations of test games when writing new rules. It is a good idea to use the same test scenario for the first couple of tries until you are happy with the basic concepts.

I like the idea as well. I prefer games where the firing unit is resolved with a single roll of dice, therefore I can roll all the dice myself by using different colors for attack and defence dice (i.e. red for attack, white for defence). But other gamers prefer opposed rolls and they can roll their own dice. Clearly the gamers would have to come to a genltemans agreement before play starts.

"I would have concerns that things could get very out of balance once you start having to add in extra modifiers or bonuses (attacked in flank, charging, cannister)."

He could combine bonuses. Look at each bonus as being a tactical advantage. If the attacker has one advantage then award him an extra die. If the attacker has three advantages then award him a third die. If the attacker has every possible advantage then award him a fourth and final die.

He could also apply modifiers to individual dice. Flank attack, attack dice less then 4 are 4; represents the chance that the flank is refused (i.e. defender dice higher then 4). Or the defender is in prepared position, defender may treat one non 6 as a 6. Therefore, a defender in prepared position in the woods rolls a 4 6 actually has a 6 6; unlikely to be hurt.

Hello guys and thanks for you remarks too, i`m nearly finshed painting my perry 28mm Cav up, a box for each side, and will soon start on the infantry..

Stats for
CAVALRY

FIREPOWER : 1D6
MELEE : 2D6 / 3D6 IF ATTACKING
DEFENCE : 2D6

Cavalry, move fast around the battlefield, weaker Firepower as they are a smaller unit, with carbines, Melee is they strong point, but only when attacking, they Defence because of fast moving and smaller open sizes unit.

Also of course, any 6`s rolled could be a extra d6, for both attacker or defender, maybe the 6`s only come into play if your dice are the highest being rolled.

Once figureds are painted i have a test, movement will be D6, so infantry line moves 2D6 etc…

Also if we can work out the combat rules, see about ww2..!!!!

Keep your thoughts coming, but i do like this system idea

Alan

Murphy is quite right, this system will be very bloody. very quick. Units will be dorne apart in seconds.

Well for a Infantry vs Infantry fight, you need to weaken it first and with a second result score 3 hits, that could take quite a few turns of shooting, or only 2 turns worth, if each turn is say 5 minutes then its a min 10 minutes of shooting to remove a unit, seems right to me in real time

Just rolled some dice just now, Infantry Vs Infantry, using FIREPOWER OF 2D6, and DEFENCE of 2D6 also.

Really injoying rolling the 4 dice, never knowing what the results may be, since the highest you can roll is 2 dice higher then you can " Weaken " the other unit and gaining a extra + 1D6, after a few rolls the weakened unit was destroyed, but only after fighting back hard and weaking the attacking unit also.

All in all i like the general ideas of the combat system, infantry in cover would gain a D6 in defence, or lose one in open ground or pointblank range.

Also i have ideas that a weakened unit could regain full strength if it falls back to be resupplyed or maybe a test with a General close by… " Spirit to the troops etc "

Ot a very lucky Bravery roll could do it, just when you think you have breaten a weaken enemy, they fight back like lions..!!!

A good film feel..
I leave thoughts with you…
INFANTRY
FIREPOWER 2D6
MELEE 2D6
DEFENCE 2D6

"Units will be dorne apart in seconds."

Well, a few turns.

The duration/intensity of combat resolution really depends on how many turns the game is anticipated to last, which also affects move distances etc.

If aiming for say 10 turns, things are going to move/fight rather faster than if looking at 40 turns. the units have to get within combat distance in the first place of course.

I prefer to set a timescale, which for my nineteenth century rules is one hour, but divisional combats can easily last two or three turns (or hours IRL) even though they are resolved with a couple of dice throws over a couple of turns.

Personally I'd much rather have lengthy moves and rapid combat resolution so there is some sort of manouvre and a decisive decision, rather than units inching toward each other and then firing turn after turn. This partly depends on how much time you have to play.

I'd say it sounds pretty good.
It does sound like things would go down quickly, but that's a good thing in my mind. It allows for more games in a day.

I like it. I would give the infantry 2D6 when attacking for melee. The bayonet charge and all that.

As with all rules, you're going to have to play them at least once to see if it even works. I assume it will.

Thanks Ds for reading all the replts etc and adding your remarks..

Myself i will be playtesting my ideas and also the battlecry rules with 28mm when i have a bunch painted etc.

The Dice came to me on the toilet..!!!

I always keep pen and paper in the bathroom for any ideas that pop into my head…

Most systems use a 3-4 hit per stand or unit, so you need to place a die next to them and remember to move the die when you move the unit, what i was after was a simple and fun system with just a counter or two on the table.

I have ideas for tests and will have officers etc, and thoughts on a campaign system to see how units fair after each battle etc.

Its just coming up with a simple combat system..

Well thanks and any ideas let me know
Alan-Uk

I`m away until sunday, so think hard and your thought please, i was also thinking about special mods like any 6`s rolled you can roll another dice etc

IE
FLANK ATTACK : instead of the + 1D6 MELEE, maybe any melee dice rolled with a 6, a second extra die can be rolled

Same with cover, light cover like a fence, may only let you roll any 6`s again on your DEFENCE dice, but with good cover a + 1D6 is added..

Trying not to have too many dice to one side of another..
Thoughts people
Alan

If you want to allow re-rolls it may be better to cinsider them for "FAILED" dice, not ones that have already scored for you, i.e. consider re-rolling "1"s.

Example:
You roll 2d6 in a situation where 5 or 6 is good. You roll 1 and 5. You reroll the 1 and it comes up 6, so you now have 5 and 6.

I'm wondering, Alan, how many other game systems you have looked at? There are hundreds of sets of wargames rules out there and loads of different mechanics for resolving fire and melee. I get the feeling you have only looked at one or two sets. Try looking at the freewargamesrules site for a start and looking through a variety of rules to see how other people have already approached this.

cheers

Looking for something simple and easy to read, nice picures and examples, and ability to add your own rules etc, and solo play etc…

Whats 'Guns at Gettysburg' like..?

The defenders' fire should be more effective than the attackers. Other than that, it's a good idea, though not new. In the old (1975) ACW/Napoleonic rules that Pete Rice and I designed, we called it "Effect of Fire," which we used instead of casualty markers.

Soulman: There are no pictures, but my "Easy Civil War" rules are free, and were designed with solo play in mind. They can be found in the files section here:

link

I like your style here. Two suggestions.

I dont like opposing rolls. Personally I prefer the shako method which uses a fixed defence value. You need to roll higher than a units MR in order to stagger it. This I find is good for horse and musket games where a units quality was more how well they recieved fire, rather than deliver it.

For morale how about you take a test. If you fail, take it again, if you fail taken it again. First fail = something second fail = something third fail = rout.

IMO more fun and less taxing than a chart.

jon

Hi jon/Blucher

Thanks for the kind words, i was thinking the other day about morale tests i had 2 ideas i think

1. failed test roll on table ( D6 ) to find out what happens
IE/
1-2 – Panic in the ranks, -1D6 FIREPOWER, until officer makes a LEADERSHIP TEST

3-4 – Panic, but no movment as well until Oficer LEDERSHIP test

5-6 – Rout, unit falls back until officer LEADERSIP TEST

OR

2. When a test is need roll so many D6, a standed test could be from 2D6+, with say a 4+ needed to pass

Each fail, means more panic
SO..
Failed 1d6 – Panic / firing
Failed 2d6 – Panic / fire & movment
Faileed 3d6 – Fall back

So a 1D6 test failed is just panic / firing

Or a 2D6 test failed is panic fire and movment etc.

That way, extra dice can be added for being attacked in the flank and testing or no officer with unit etc..

I like the idea that the test could be on more then one dice, and fits in with the combat hits idea too

Your thoughts…
Alan

Also Hi donlowry

Thanks for the input too, not trying for anything new, just a nice little system i can build and play for fun, and design to be a easy read, and add campaign rules too, so i was thinking ot starting my own you see..

Also could be used for WW2..?
And of course solo play

Just been hit was some idea and wanted to pass them on

EXAMPLE OF INFANTRY COMBAT AND MORALE TESTING

INFANTRY STAND/UNIT

TRAINING 4+
BRAVERY 4+
FIREPOWER 2D6
MELEE 2D6
DEFENCE 2D6

EXAMPLE
Infantry shooting at Infantry

1. Rolled 2D6 firepower
2. Target rolls 2D6 defence

See how many Hits ( higher attack dice then defence dice )

RESULTS

NO HITS – LIGHT CASUALTIES THATS ALL
1 HIT – CAUALTIES – MAKE BRAVERY TEST
2 HITS – HEAVY CASUALITES : UNIT " WEAKEND " -BRAVERY TEST
WITH EXTRA D6
3 HITS – UNIT DESTROYED OR FLED BATTLEFIELD

BRAVERY TESTS

When you are told to make a bravery test, roll your firepower dice again that will be 2D6 normally, if you " WEAKENED " a unit you gain a extra D6 too

The targetted unit rolls those 2D6 or 3D6 firepower dice and each one rolls 4+ is fine, any that are under, check this morale table

MORALE TABLE

1 FAILED DICE – PANIC FIRE – -1D6 FIREPOWER
2 FAILED DICE – PANIC FIRE & MOVE, AS ABOVE AND NO MOVEMENT
3 FAILED DICE – FALL BACK – FALL BACK NOW
4 FAILED DICE – FLEE – REMOVE FROM TABLE

If you have got a 1/2/3 failed dice, next turn you can make a BRAVERY test, which is a single D6 with any officer skill to remove the effects.

SO
UNIT BRAVERY 4+

OFFICER -1 to roll – " poor"
0 to roll – " ok officer "
+1 to roll – " good officer "

A officer has 5 skiils, 2 of them are
LEADERSHIP & LOYALTY

Leadership is used to help make bravery tests
Loyalty is used to rally the men, and

My idea is if a unit is in rout, a office which is well liked ( loyalty ) then its a better chance to rally the men, if he is hated, then does not matter what he shouts, they are not going to stop running

And Leadership is his skill under fire, and helps stop the guys painicing, but help the unit bravery test when first told to make it.

His other abilities in mind are

TRAINING – skill in swapping formations etc
BRAVERY – if unit wins a round of melee and unit test to get a free advance, will he stick his neck out
GUTS – when ordered to change, does he wish to order it or not bother..

Thoughts please
Alan

hello,

On the positive I do like the panic fire result.

However, I think for a simple game there are too many rolls.

The opposing fire rolls for example. Couldnt you just make the defence value a fixed number eg 4

This would been that you need a 4+ on each attacking dice to score a hit. Elite troops would have a 6, needing a 6+. This would mean that they would hardly ever break unless weakened (but is possible!).

I also think three characteristics is too many. Two should be more than enough IMO.

Hi blucher

Yes i like the panic fire too, not really panic but as friends fall down and the sound snd smoke people will panic when reloading or not aim, until a officer gets them into shape.. so thanks

As for the dice rolls, i can remove the opposing players dice and just make it a target number, that way it can go up and down depending on range etc

Later today i will do a word file with the two options and movment rules etc..
I could email them to you, or maybe a yahoo group for feedback…?
Your thoughts
Alan

while dont read much on ACW stuff i do with napoleonics so I write with this mindset.

Once infantry started a firefight it became hard to get them to do anything else! The process of reloading and firing calmed them, kept them busy. Add in the smoke and confusions and you have a what i term "uncontroled fire". The battalion becomes "pinned". Ordering a unit to charge or wheel in this conditions would be incredibly difficult.

Im not sure how similar ACW was in this respect but id guess it was. Your concept of panic fire may be different to this however. "panic" suggests that the units morale is on a knife edge. Perhaps some of the troops are edging backwards, cowering low etc. This is perhaps a more extreme version of mine. In my scenario the inividual units are more "numb" than "paniced". In a kind of daze, training kicks in and they reload, fire without thinking. It is actually a failrly natural state for a napoleonic infantryman to be in..

The equivilent of panic in my rules would be "shaken" IN this state the unit acts with uncontrolled fire. It can handle being shot at but but will almost certainly rout from any charges etc.

Yes your right, i think the only diference with ACW, is the clothes was not as colourful..!!

Also easy to paint too…!!!

The perry rules in the box set are too simple, but have you read the rules that come with the victrix boxes..?

only rules for infantry at the moment, but really good, and a free download on their site, i was thinking of using this rules once they have arty and cav etc…

Back to house cleaning..!!!
Alan

Hi all, i have being rolling dice, triyng to get the feel of the shooting rules and the feel of the battle as well and have made some changes, so i like feedback please before i can move forward…

INFANTRY shooting ( firepower ) 2D6
DEFENCE : 4+
BRAVERY : 4+

SO..

As before you roll your shooting dice which starts at 2D6 at the other unit and looking to roll then units DEFENCE or higher which is a 4+, each dice rolled 4 or more is a HIT…

SO…

No hits – " taking fire " / no game effects

1 hits – " light casualties " / just roll on the morale table using the shooting dice again which is 2D6, morale is like Hits, with each hit making things tough for the unit, like falling back or fleeing etc…Ok

2 hits – " Heavy casualties " / place counter called " WEAKENED " behind unit / from now on any unit shooting at this " weakened " unit add a extra + 1d6 to its shooting dice which is now 3D6… Again same with the morale table, you now test with 3D6, 2d6 shooting + 1 d6 extra

3 hits – " slaughter house " / place a counter called BADLY WEAKENED next to it / all future attacks are now a + 2D6 instead, same for morale tests

4 hits – " destroyed or fleeing " / remove unit from table.

As you can see when two units face each other, the firing is unknown, you could cause 2 hits, or none, but as you take 2 hits you are weakened, and the extra D6, could push you into 3 hits, and then into 4 hits and death.

min of 4 turns of great shooting, as you 2d6 can rise to 3d6 and 4d6 another to remove the unit.

2D6 is the basic for infantry, and say a cannon would start at 4D6 etc..

SO MY PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT..

I`m happy with the hits up to level 2 ( 2 hits ) thats the one that starts to breaks the units back so to speak, but they can still pull together and return fire.

Its the 3 hits, the extra 2D6 is great, but what about some extras for the 2 hits like

" also -1 to your DEFENCE ", so its now 3+ as well as the 2D6 extra..

or have the DEFENCE be a -1 to you and a =! to hime, so he rolls 4D6 needing 3+ on each to destroy you, and you roll 2D6 if you have not weakened him already back and need 5+ to score hits, this would so few men shooting, and of course more guns pointing at your few men.

The other idea was rolling sixes again, this could be for any dice, or only if your weakened or badly weakened..?

No point talking about morale just the physical effects on a unit or reg of guys.

No stands get removed with these rules, or dice needed for figures lost etc,or you need is one counter, with weakened on one side and badly weakend on the other.
Any unit shooting will see what can be added to they shooting dice etc.

When you add something the same but for morale with the BRAVERY test, a unit could be weakened, or morale side of things stand the ground, or a bad morale rolls, could see the weakened unit falling back and needs to be called back.

But a weakend unit with luck could return fire and stand together and stay in the fight to the end, true heroes.

Anyway need you help with the damage side of things, and like to nail it down for me to write the rules down to play test.

Thanks for reading and adding any input into my game ideas all

Hi guys, anybody can read my above post and let me know, i would love to use this combat idea, just want to see if the dice is right etc..
Thanks

so no takers on giving me feedback on my battle ideas….? i know people are busy with lifes etc, but anybody love to add input..?

I`m planning to buy the new black powder rules, but i don`t know what there are like, it may be best to stick to my own rules if i can sort out the combat ideas…

Thanks people

soulman,

If you could put your Combat Results Table in a Cable Results Table, people might be better able to add some input.

Jim