"Which Shermans for Normandy?" Topic

I'm looking at possibly doing a scenario from Heroes of Omaha and Panzer Lehr. The scenario is called Battlegroup Scholze. The battle is set July 11, 1944.

Question is, what Shermans should I use? M4A1, A3? Also, were there M4A3 76's in combat by then?

Well, Bradley had a load of M4A1(76mm)shipped in time for Op. Cobra, although they were available before that. 102 of them went into combat for the first time on July 25th. The M4A3(76mm) arrived in September, 1944.

Belton Cooper's book, Death Traps mentions M4 and M4A1 tanks and states that "By the time we arrived in Normandy, between 10 and 15 percent of our tanks carried the 76mm…"

He dosn't mention the M4A3 as being part of the 3d Armored Division at that point in the war. Both the M4 and M4A1 had the same type engine so you could probably intermix them.

How interesting that for all the memoirs written by combat soldiers, Belton Cooper's memoirs seem to be cited more than any one else's on TMP. Shows what unique insights he had into what really happened.

IIRC, Cooper mentioned that they tried to assign one M4xx (76) per platoon, though obviously, there wasn't quite enough to go around.

I think Cooper's work is cited because of a) availability and b) infamy.

Damon.

Cool. I'll throw a 76 in just to spice it up and give the Americans a little more punch.

Funny thing is Belton Cooper has been shown to be a very poor source on Shermans in WWII.

For example…. "By the time we arrived in Normandy, between 10 and 15 percent of our tanks carried the 76mm…"

No Shermans with the 76mm gun arrived in Normandy until late July. They were available pre Normandy but as it was believed that the 75mm would be adequate and had a better HE round than the 76mm the armored divisions didn't want them.

No Shermans with the 76mm gun arrived in Normandy until late July. They were available pre Normandy but as it was believed that the 75mm would be adequate and had a better HE round than the 76mm the armored divisions didn't want them.

I've never read belton, but jdginaz's post is also my understanding after many years of reading about Shermans. I'm positive Hunnicutt (the number one Sherman source, full stop) says something similar to what jdginaz indicates.
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Tim

Cooper may be referring to the point in time at which his unit (3AD?)arrived in Normandy, rather than the situation on 6th June. According to wiki (usual caveats apply link ) some elements of 3AD were engaged on 29th June & the division as a whole on 9th July.

I'm reading Death Traps at the moment. He was responsible for Recovery/Replacements for Combat Command B, 3d Armoured.

My understanding is that the 75mm was considered adequate after the experience in Italy.

Bradley did however ask for Fireflies, when 'funnies' were offered, but production of the 17pdr was barely high enough for British and Commonwealth issue, without trying to supply another force as well.

He did after mounting US tank losses. The British replied that they could not supply due to the far worse British/Cdn armour losses.

The UK needed all the 17pdrs they could produce. As a result, though they couldnt supply the US with them, they offered the plans and to allow the US to produce the gun to their hearts content under license. Two official reasons are given why we didnt take them up on it.
1. It was felt the 76mm would be more than adequate.
2. Supply problems as it would mean producing the ammuntion as well and adding yet another round into the supply chain.

It is very probable that the old "not invented here" syndrome also played a part.

Skirmish Campaigns: Heroes Of Omaha and Panzer Lehr* – p. 3:
(middle of the page in the General Scenario Notes) US M4 Sherman Tanks: Several of the M4 Sherman were in service in June-July of 1944; the M4, M4A1 and M4A3 were the most common.
* = this is the book from which the "Battlegroup Scholze" scenario is taken. In other books or scenarios they sometimes specify a particular model such as DD, dozer, etc. but I do not recall them refering to 76mm guns.

The SC scenarios are usually carefully thought through, so I'd have thought plonking in a some 76mm Shermans might rather unbalance it.

A Sherman is a Sherman. A Panther is a Panther. A Tiger is a Tiger and a Tiger II is a treaded, mini version of the Bismarck. Just have a whole lot of Shermans.

"and a Tiger II is a treaded, mini version of the Bismarck"

made my day:)