"What if Britain was involved in the 1809 campaign" Topic

We know that Britain promised and gave some 750000 lb to Austria for her war efforts in the 1809 campaign. The British also had promised a major diversionnary force in northern Germany to support Austria, but after many delays this was never to be, and instead they went for the expedition (fiasco) in Holland.

I've always been fascinated by this "what if" Britain had indeed sent a force to support Austria in 1809. From a gaming point of view, it allows me to field a force of Brits and to include them in 1809, and, let's face it, as far as aesthetic goes, it's hard to beat whitecoats and redcoats together! What a superb force that would be on the battlefield.

If I were to create a fictious British expeditionnary force, what OOB should I base it on? The Holland expedition?

Anyone ever tried this scenario before? Thoughts? Ideas?

It would be intresting, but when you think of the epic battles during that campaign, Think of wagram almost 300 000 men, what would a singe 40 000 man army have against that, they only way I can see it work is if the british could link up with the main Austiran army, then it would be bolsterd with 40 000 more men, or almost 2 corps,
Now sure how well trained the Brits on the Holland invation was, but if there were close to ther Peninsular quality, then those 40 000 would be a good addtion to a big army, as you would have two extra corps with above avrage traing and battle stedyness.

I would be cool with a real anglo-german(austrian) army
And yes Red and white coats togeather would look nice.
The British hadn't been in big continental/german battles since 7YW.

A british expeditionary force was a real possibility (Napoleon claimed Illyria after 1809 to prevent such British intervention possibilities) but it would have been based out of the Adriatic Sea and it would have been, due to the increased logistics issues, smaller than they could have raised for Portugal or Holland.

At best, I believe that a contingent of British might have been based out of Trieste so Archduke John's campaign would have taken on a different complexion where, instead of driving west his first priority would have been securing southern Venice for the British.

At that point, would the British force have struck north to join the major theater? Not lkely since that would have meant trusting the security of their port to John. The British would have stayed in the Italian theater. Given how much parity there was already there, the inclusion of a small British force would have tipped the balance in the Coalition's favour.

That still would not have meant any decisive strategic changes. Events on the Danube would have required caution, at best, in Italy.

Another option might have been a British invasion of central/southern Italy.

Interesting Idea ArchiducCharles. I would favour taking the Dutch expedition OOB and transfering it to an Austrian Army. With of course a few units less to denote losses on the way. Say two thirds of the original force. The British would have to rely on Austrian supply lines as any coming from a northern port would be subject to being cut by the French. That being the case, I would also cut the Austrian forces by the whatever addition the British have added as supplies shuold be around the same level.

It would also give the "allies" and unfair advantage having an addition 30,00 men at say Wagram. They could use the extra for sure, I just got thumped rather badly in our game. But most games would be lopsided.

As an afterthought, a British invasion force in Illyria would have provoked a Turkish reaction perhaps.

Brits and Austrians (loads of obscure border troops) fighting French,Italians and Turks?

I have wondered what it would have done if they had landed in Northern Italy (Genoa or Venice).

After the British experience of Austrian "co-operation" in the campaigns in the low countries in the late 90's, I don't see how any British general would have wanted to act in concert with Austrians.

An independent force, intended to threaten French control of an area or divert French forces from the big show would have been about the best that could be hoped for.

However if the usual British alacrity as displayed in the 1806 campaign is any guide, any help from Britain would have been successful AND too late to make any material difference.

Id look at an army of about the same size of that at Castricum or larger.
Or you could use the Walcheren force as a base and re enforce that with some other troops.

Lord knows, almost any outcome would have been better than what happened at Walcheren

Being based out of Adriatic would be interesting, but those are awfully long supply lines

I like the thought of the Turks intervening – could make for some great games

At castricum I have the Bitish contingent at 31 battalions of line, 8 Squadons of Light Dragoons, 4 guards battalions. These totals include two line flanke battalions and a guard flank coy battalion.
23 000 men.

At Flushing and Veere I have.
3/1st Guards, 1/5th, 2/23rd, 1/26th, 1/36th, 2/63rd, 1/68th, 1/71st, 77th, 1/81st, 2/95th and 4 Royal Artillery Batteries.
14 000 men,
of which 4000 will die of Walcheren fever and 106 Fighting. So placing them in the maelstrom of a continental cannon festival might be easier on them anyway. You would need to bulk these out with some more troops. I would have suggested merging these troops with Sir John Moores 1808 Swedish expeditionary forces but It seems these are the troops he takes to Spain. So cant use them.
On the good side you good use the above troops as a nucleus and build up with any non Wellington battalions you fancy. and Cavalry.. could even field the Scots Greys far earlier than anyone else.

My friends and I did a European campaign many years ago in which I (playing the French) was heavily engaged with the Austrians along the Danube with the Grande Armee, I left one single but large Corps of observation along the French/Dutch coast.

The British and Austrian players were allied and I knew they were scheming something but what it was not sure. The British had a presence in the Mediterranean but to what extent I did not know. I felt that if any British intervention was going to happen it would come from somewhere down there. To my astonishment they picked Holland in which to land while Soult's Corps was spread out over hundreds of square miles.

I only had small detachments along the foreshore which quickly fell back while I hurriedly instigated the concentration of the Corps and all outlaying units. The British won a series of small engagements and took a couple of major towns and even looked like they might be able to threaten Paris if Soult could not stop them. Luckily for me the war against Austria took a turn for the better and they capitulated. The British scurried back to their boats and took off.

It was a very near run thing and during the campaign I had no real idea of the extent of the British invasion but it was substantial. As a French player I felt that I was secure enough but it was proved that these back door expeditions can really turn into serious events that can undermine everything else. I remember having other corps in France and occupied nations falling back towards the threat the British posed just to cover the predicament I found myself in. It was touch and go for a while there…

Regards,
Shane

Very interesting comments guys.

wrgmr1
- But most games would be lopsided.-

You just replayed Wagram, I defer to your experience. You think the addition of 20 or 30 000 British would make Wagram that unbalanced? The French had a substancial man advantage after all.

- On the good side you good use the above troops as a nucleus and build up with any non Wellington battalions you fancy. and Cavalry.. could even field the Scots Greys far earlier than anyone else. -

That's a very good idea, I was thinking something along those lines. It could be a fun and original project. Any online resources on the Walcheren expedition's OOB?

link

This is a full OB for units sent to Walcheren, its more comprehensive than mine which just showed troops that fought in the two main engagements at Flushing and Veere.

Really cool idea ErHerzog.I have a small british contigent in my Napoleonics, not sure why I did it as most of the rest is Austrians and Russians, would be neat to be able to use them with my Austrians.Thanks for the idea.
Pete

Thanks Edwulf, exactly what I was looking for!

I'm working on the 1805-07 campaigns and was considering painting a brigade of British that might land at Emden on the North Sea (short supply line and access to the Royal Navy protection) or at one of the Hanseatic towns to help out the Prussians (or maybe help to evacuate some Prussian troops from Lubeck so that they don't end up surrendering to the French, allowing them to fight another day somewhere else).

Imagine Sir John Moore and his army is in Northern Germany and suddenly finds that Napoleon is heading his way with a couple of corps (after finishing off the Prussians after Jena). Lots of gaming possibilities there.

"Imagine Sir John Moore and his army is in Northern Germany and suddenly finds that Napoleon is heading his way with a couple of corps (after finishing off the Prussians after Jena). Lots of gaming possibilities there."

Isn't that just setting Corunna in Germany?

"750000 lb" of what? gunpowder?

Why not use it as intended?
Make a campaign based on the Danish Army and the Spanish landed in Scania, and fougth the swedish army and the british force. That would interesting and manageable.

- "750000 lb" of what? gunpowder? -

$$$$$

in faxt the same what-if scenario could be used for the 1809 campaign. Imagine the dutch army sided with the british invader, french forces are defeated. British-Dutch forces advance into western-prussia which let the Prussian stand up against the Fench (something the Austrian governement thought would happen)

Isn't that just setting Corunna in Germany?

Yes, exactly. That was my point.

in faxt the same what-if scenario could be used for the 1809 campaign. Imagine the dutch army sided with the british invader, french forces are defeated. British-Dutch forces advance into western-prussia which let the Prussian stand up against the Fench (something the Austrian governement thought would happen)

Then imagine instead the Prussians and Dutch fighting off the British invaders of their territory and having the Russians join in, with their fleets, to bottle up the British in their continental ports and make evacuation impossible.

it does no good to imagine Britain in 1809 as Britain in 1942, looking to liberate Europe single handedly. Britain had, afterall, zero moral highground and the European powers were just as suspicious of Britain making land grabs as they were afraid of the French.

"Yes, exactly. That was my point. evil grin"

Well that's alright then :)

I wan't imagine britain as in 1942 but just imagine a possibility. Only (part of) the Dutch were fed-up with france and the ruin to the trade (and wealth) this ment for a lot of the trades/ship owners etc.
Also the Kingdom had to pay the French, feed a french occupying army and had to contribute to Npoleon's army in young men.

But Louis Bonaparte was the King of Holland and if the British had suggested revolution and democracy as a viable means of achieving political ends… well that leads to chaos, anarchy, and more headless monarchs. They couldn't grant legitimacy to the idea of revolution in any form.

Louis Bonaparte was brother of Napoleon and not the real ruler of Netherlands. The Stadtholder William and his family was in Prussia, London or fighting against Napoleon (or died as a Austrian general). So in my opinion they could suggest revolution.
Another possibility was Louis himself who had a lot of quarrels with his Imperal brother already; maybe he could see a real kingdom for himself (backed up by GB, Prussia and Austria).
Imagination, you know

The new Battles for Empire scenario book has a hypothetical 1807 battle featuring Prussians, KGL and Swedes vs. French near Berlin.

Also an 1809 scenario featuring Brits vs. French, Prussian, and Dutch troops on Cadzan.

Both look to be great fun.