"Existing British Warships" Topic

I've been to Great Britain a number of times and have visited a number of its military sites; Bovington Tank Museum, Portsmouth (HMS Victory), Hadrian's Wall, Imperial War Museum, Culloden, various regimental museums, etc.
So I was feeling rather knowledgeable and pleased with myself when a friend asked me for a list of the existing WWI and WWII British warships he could take his elderly naval veteran father to see.
I know about Portsmouth and the ships there but I was embarrassed to say that I didn't know of any others. Surely at least a few of the British WWI and WWII battleships and battle cruisers have been preserved for tours like the US has preserved the WWII battleships New Jersey and Missouri and the pre-WWII Olympia and Texas, to name several.

Preserved battleships are a peculiarly American thing – we Brits don't have any, and to be honest the Japanese Mikasa is the only one I can think of outside of the USA – no dreadnoughts spring to mind at all….

We do have the odd preserved warship, but nothing so big….

Dom.

[Edit after scratching head and a quick search….]

HMS Belfast's actually the only major warship I can think of. Oddly we probably have more "significant" ships preserved from the 19th century than the 20th…. Honourable mention to HMS Caroline, though – light cruiser, and still in commission…. (Not normally visitable, as she's still used as a static training ship in Belfast – not bad for a Jutland veteran….)

Good link here: link Scroll down to "HMS" for the warships, obviously, but it's a pretty short list.

The only complete preserved ship that could class as a 'battleship' is HMS Victory though HMS Warrior really should be up there with Victory. Technically she's only an ironclad frigate so ranks with HMS Belfast rather than Victory.

"Preserved battleships are a peculiarly American thing – we Brits don't have any"

Now that's a pity. It would have been both a pleasure and an honor to stride the deck of a Nelson or KGV class battleship.

I noted in Conway's that your Illustrious class WWII fleet carrier HMS Victorious made it all the way to 1969 before being broken up. It would have been a thrill to stand on the deck of a ship that took part in the Okinawa campaign. You could almost hear the captain:

"I say Reggie. Get a few of the lads to sweep that rubbish over the side when you get a chance. It seems one of those Kamakazi chappies hit our armored flight deck again. They keep that up and they're going to chip the paint."

Try this site
HMS Cavaliar 1944. HMS Ocelot 1962. HMS Garnnet

chdt.org.uk

Finance was the big thing – at the end of WW2 UK plc was more or less bankrupt, so paying to preserve, versus being paid for 35,000 tons of scrap steel wasn't considered a tough decision, unfortunately. For my 2p, I really think they should've preserved the Grand Old Lady at least, but such is life….

I imagine British WWII naval military enthusiasts are just as disappointed as American ones. Although I don't understand why at least one or two of the larger class ships were not mothballed. Mothballing is fairly economical plus you extend the life a million pound investment. I recall reading years ago about British naval authorizes bemoaning that very fact during the Falklands War ; they could have used the big guns for shore bombardment. Responding to a journalist who remarked that the Argentines would sink such a relic with a modern Exocet missile, they replied:
"Exocet? These are armored WWII warships, mate. An Exocet wouldn't even rattle the china."

You'd have thought that we'd have preserved the Enterprise and maybe the Saratoga since they were the only two US carriers to serve – and survive – the entire war.

Sometimes, one wishes for a time machine for the express purpose of going back and thwacking the "powers that be" back then to ask, "what were you thinking?!"

Wyatt

Wyatt the Odd

True. Short-sighted decisions by both governments although the economic plight of post-war Britian makes their decision certainly more understandable than ours.

The thing I find inexcusable is the failure to preserve HMS Warspite, probably the best bargain Pusser ever had in a ship. I don't think any other ship survived both Jutland and Fritz-X. "Five cities we bombarded/and never lost a man/We went through ice at Narvik/and fire at Matapan". If anyone needed more of a clue that she should never have been scrapped, they might have taken the hint when, on the way to the breaker's, she slipped her tow and ran aground -- on St. Geroge's day.

Goodbye, Mr. Woodpecker.

All the best,

John.

It was an absolute crime that the "Enterprise" was scrapped. I feel the same way about not ANY of the British dreadnoughts being preserved. By the way, the Greeks have a nice armoured cruiser, the "Averoff."

"You'd have thought that we'd have preserved the Enterprise and maybe the Saratoga since they were the only two US carriers to serve – and survive – the entire war."

Alas, poor Ranger – always forgotten, always overlooked. Though not on front line duty, she was still in commission and still serving on VJ day.

HMS Victorious, the first aircraft carrier to have a fully angled flight deck. I served on her 1965-1967 as a "badger"

Not to threadjack, but…
The lack of respect for military history extends beyond the ships themselves.

One of my favorite day trips as a boy was to go to the remains of the coastal defense batteries in San Francisco and Marin.
Despite having the equipment removed, and much of the interiors being sealed off or filled in, they were a fascinating starting point for thinking about history, and the fact that we did expect invaders to come by sea (instead of just creeping across our borders, or flim-flamming their way past the airport security people). Now, the remains of several of the batteries are being removed in order to "restore the natural landscape" – despite the fact that after over a century, the shore defenses are part of the landscape.

I went recently

The Chatham Historic Dockyard is a good visit. HMS Cavalier was built at the very end of WW2, but the hull design dates from the pre-WW2 J-class destroyers, so you can get a very good feel for the size and arrangement of the ships that fought throughout the war. chdt.org.uk

Also, HMS Belfast in central London is a must-see. hmsbelfast.iwm.org.uk

Portsmouth has a submarine museum, wiith submarines to see. rnsubmus.co.uk

Whilst you're there you can see HMS Victory hms-victory.com and the Mary Rose. maryrose.org

There used to be a German WW2 submarine in Liverpool, but sadly that is no more.

For a "Maritime Nation", our respect for our maritime heritage is scandalous. There are virtually no old ships of any kind preserved, merchant or naval, apart from those listed above. And the Tricomalee, of course, a frigate of 1817, preserved in Hartlepool hms-trincomalee.co.uk

There are still at least a couple of significant merchies preserved – the Cutty Sark and the SS Great Britain spring readily to mind.

The sub museum at Portsmouth is great, although I was a little disappointed that the big WW2 sub is not actually in the water!

For big twentieth century ships though, HMS Belfast is the only one really, and it is easy to visit if you are in London, as is Cutty Sark.

If you visit Cutty Sark, the Maritime Museum is just around the corner.

I remember when HMS Warrior was a hulk used as an RN oil jetty in Pembroke Dock. I went on her, aged five, as my friend's grand-dad had the job of painting her. She was completely dismasted and was tarmac'd over! They've done an incredible job of restoring her.

Well it's not a major warship but M33 a WW1 era monitor that saw service in the Med and later during the British intervention in the Russian civil war. Undergoing restoration, alas she doesn't appear quite ready for visitors at this point in time.

www3.hants.gov.uk/m33

I agree its a tragedy that so many great ships were lost to the breakers. It took me a while to get over it actually. :)

I think USS Texas is the only dreadnought still around. She's still on my 'to see' list.

Don't forget the Essex sitting in the Hudson river. I know she wasn't even built on a battlecruiser hull, but she's pretty damned impressive for 1940's technology. Highly recommended if you come to NYC. Sure beats a bad musical and costs a heck of a lot less…plus you get to check out all the planes in the hanger and topside.

There are still at least a couple of significant merchies preserved

Yes – there's the Discovery in Dundee and the Glenlee in Glasgow too. And I think a few more elsewhere.

As a Hartlepudlian, I need to advertise HMS Tricomalee

hms-trincomalee.co.uk

MH

Don't forget the Essex sitting in the Hudson river.

That's the Intrepid, yes?

They tried to preserve the USS Enterprise, but the fund-raising drive fell short, so my father used her to shave with. The city of Fall River, MA, tried to preserve the heavy cruiser that bore their name, and raised enough money to save about 20' of her bow. Saving a big ship from the scrap pile is not a proposition for the economy-minded.

I agree about it being a shame that HMS Warspite wasn't saved. I've read that she was in such bad shape by war's end that preservation would have been prohibitively expensive.

The ships that have been preserved in the US are a scattered batch, rather than a cross-section of the Navy that once was. For example, seven of our ten modern battleships are still in existence, but only one (USS Texas) of the dozens from before the 1930's. Submarines are popular subjects for preservation, destroyers less so, only a couple of cruisers are left, and light forces are almost nonexistent.

I count myself fortunate to live an hour or so from five sites of preserved warships (Battleship Cove in Fall River, USS Nautilus, USS Albacore, USS Salem, and USS Constitution/USS Cassin Young). If Olde England didn't do the best job of preserving their naval history, New England has done it right.

Joedog -

You should come to the Puget Sound. We still have a complex of 3 forts that guarded the entrance to Puget Sound, keeping the baying hordes of Canadians at bay. Fort Casey, on Whidbey Island (shameless plug) has an 11" retreating gun still in battery. Across the Sound, in Port Townsend, is the Coastal Artillery Museum.

Bremerton still preserves the destroyer Turner Joy, which was so famously not attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964.

Its the Men that's the Royal Navy it always was and all way will be. Harts of oak with a lots of guts

I agree that the Warspite should have been saved..She saw so much action and survived so many hits it was a shame she was scrapped--Likewise I can't believe the US scrapped the Enterprise she had the most battle stars of any US carrier…
But HMS Victory and HMS Warrior are amazing ships to visit and very well restored..

I'm afraid that a "tall ship", the "Great Britain", and the burnt out remains of the "Cutty Sark" don't quite add up to a memorial of our mercantile maritime heritage. There's nothing from the 20th century, apart from the "Waverley", which itself is hardly representative.

There's nothing from the 20th century, apart from the "Waverley",

It depends what you count; I used to drink on the Lincoln Castle, for instance…. Good list here; several are "surviving" rather than "preserved", but it's a bit more than just the Waverley….

link

We've got a few worth visiting here in the SF bay area – the Hornet in Alameda is on its way to being what the Essex is in NYC (I've visited both). We also have a WW2 submarine, the Pompano and liberty ship in SF (and a victory ship in Richmond, iirc – but haven't visited it yet). The ACW era Ft Point is still around – but only because the builder of the Golden Gate Bridge specifically built the bridge around the fort!
While the coastal defense batteries from the Spanish American War to WW2 eras haven't been maintained at all, there is also a Nike (iirc) missile battery in Marin that has been restored by volunteers/vets and does demos one day a month.
We also get ships in port that allow visits by the public a few times a year.

I accept that there is more than just the "Waverley", but if you look at the others, they're all either pleasure cruisers, like the "Lincoln Castle", or ferries. There are no representatives of the enormous merchant fleet that Britain once dominated world trade with. Not one tanker, bulk carrier or general cargo ship left in Britain to reflect our maritime heritage. That, I think is shameful.

Well there is the Rame Head – I think the SBS are still assaulting her on a regular basis….

"We still have a complex of 3 forts that guarded the entrance to Puget Sound, keeping the baying hordes of Canadians at bay"
They are indeed worth visiting although the scenery is so beautiful that your attention is easily distracted.
There is a similar facility located on an island in the St. Lawrence River near Montreal. Except it was built by the Canadians to keep the baying hordes of Americans at bay.

Chouan, I agree with you. We have a shameful collection of vessels compared to our maritime heritage. Surely we should have at least one battleship, a Fort or Sam or Empire ship, a Flower class corvette, an old V or W class destroyer, a pre-dreadnought, a 1920s era merchant ship.

But no. We've got all from the age of steam.

Was Clement Attlee's Labour government, in power 1945-1951 (the prime time to mothball selected British WWII warships), to blame? They have the reputation in the states of being no friend of the British military so I suspect no left-of-center government tears were shed as the irreplaceable WWII maritime heritage of Great Britain went to the breakers.

For Pre-Dreadnoughts worldwide:

link

Mosby65 – not really; the decision was pragmatic over ideological – the bottom line was, well, the bottom line….

Oh, we do have a pre-dreadnought! OK, but even so we still have sod all from the age of steam. Where is our merchant shipping heritage? I went to the National Maritime Museum in London a couple of years ago and it was woeful. Liverpool was better, but even so going to these places you'd think that Britain had little involvement with the sea.

Mosby--Nah most were scrapped under the Tories--Vanguard in 62 and the surviving KGV's in late 50's….--considering that Vanguard was about the same age as Hermes there is no reason she couldn't have been saved--even as a HQ /training ship..The US managed to get New Jersey back into operation rapidly during Vietnam…
Having her bombard Tumbledown or Goose Green with a few 15inch rounds would soon have caused the Argies a problem..(same reason Belgrano was so dangerous)..

mosby65,

The Atlee government had little alternative, as Dom says; the country was bankrupt after six years of war, to the extent that men returning from Japanese camps found their back-pay taxed at 49% as "unearned income". However, you are right that it was anti-military – they refused to allow men fighting in Korea and Malaya to vote in the General Election because of the anti-government feeling among the conscripts and reservists (IIRC, homeward-bound mail was also illegally destroyed because it was too difficult to sensor all the comments).

To confirm what archstanton says, I can recall veteran vessels being scrapped well into the 60s; this had to be done to pay for our nuclear deterrent which, then as now, ate up a huge part of the defence budget. Unfortunately, there was not much of a national "heritage culture" at that time – most museums were still based on private ownership/sponsorship in those days – and the Armed Forces generally were not popular because of conscription and "retreat from Empire".

Years ago I read a report on why the Warspite was not a practicable proposition as a museum ship. Mostly it related to extensive damage that had never been repaired and other defects allowed to remain un-attended because everyone knew the war was drawing to a close in Europe, and once it did she was likely to head for the scrap yard.

She fought on with one turret and magazine area out of action, and various parts of the ship had been shut down due to lack of maintenance. In the latter part of the war most concentration was on the mass of new ships then being completed, and even more importantly, the older ships' crews were urgently needed to man the new vessels. Hence the Malaya and others went into reserve early.

In such a situation the old ships that needed a lot of work to keep them effective quickly deteriorated. In such a state they soon became not worth repairing. Especially in a post war era when the UK was desperately short of money to rebuild its infrastructure and look after the welfare of its citizens.

I fully appreciate the post-war ecomonic stress and I consider myself singularly unqualified to criticize the decisions of a duly-elected democratic government made with the best of intentions on behalf of its citizens. As an unapologetic anglophile I lack the inclination as well.

But, would mass starvation and total financial collapse really have swept through post-war Britain if either of the surviving Nelson-class ( three forward turrets each with three 16 inch guns-now that's cool) or one of the four surviving KGV class capital ships been preserved as a fitting memorial to British naval valor in WWII?

I think part of the reason for the non-preservation culture was that nobody (or not many at the top at least) at that time could really imagine that there would ever be a time when such ships would not be around and hence keeping one or two back to show "what it used to be like" was never really an issue. In the late 40s/early 50s, the idea that British warships and merchant ships would not continue to rule the waves – or at least compete for them – was never really considered.

Most of the beautiful 20th Century ship models, made by the shiipyards themselves of ships they'd built, held by the NMM, are in storage. There is also, as Ermintrude suggests, remarkably little there on our Merchant Navy.

>>But, would mass starvation and total financial collapse really have swept through post-war Britain if either of the surviving Nelson-class ( three forward turrets each with three 16 inch guns-now that's cool) <<

Ugh. . . maybe its just because I'm not British. . . but I'm only too happy the Nelsons went to the breakers. Battleships should be majestic and beautiful. Those two were about as ugly as they come. lol

Steam engines on Britain's railways were similarly scrapped ruthlessly.

Another major contender on the list of RN ships that never should have gone to the breakers was the Sheffield. Pursuing the Bismarck and Scharnhorst, helping to win at Barents Sea… that cruiser did it all.

Even the men who wielded the cutting torches were sometimes reluctant to chop up a grand old lady of the sea. One scrapyard worker saw the Renown (the last of the battle cruisers) being towed in and thought, "Oh no, please, not that one."

The Nelsons, on the other hand… I like one author's description of them as "looking like large angry oil tankers."

Steam engines on Britain's railways were similarly scrapped ruthlessly.

Maybe we should take the same solution for battleships as we did for steam engines; dig out the plans, have a whip-round, and build a new one…. ;-)

But if you look at the climate of the 40s and early 50s we British were broke, fed up with war, demobilising, and heading into an arms race we could ill-afford with the Communist Bloc. Being sentimental about some very used Battleships when there was 35,000 tonnes of scrap metal just waiting to be recycled, financially at least, into useful stuff like Lightnings, Victors, Centurions, and the next generation of weapons would have been silly.