| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 9:34 a.m. PST |
Everyone I have played Disposable Heroes, and I have yet to play Rules of Engagement but I am interested in getting the rules. What is better? I am looking for a skirmish game for platoon size and below with infantry being the focus. However, I still like the armor option. I play in 20mm. What do you think is the better system? I liked DH, but it seemed at times to be a little slow in terms of action. Is ROE any quicker? |
| BrianW | 05 Jul 2009 10:05 a.m. PST |
Have you narrowed your choice down to just those two, or are you still open for other options? I ask because Troops, Weapons and Tactics by TooFat Lardies fits your description very well.
BWW |
| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 10:10 a.m. PST |
I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I like playing where one figure equals one figure and the size element is generally sections or squads. I like combat multipliers too like tanks and mortars. Hope this helps. |
| donlowry | 05 Jul 2009 10:39 a.m. PST |
Why is this under Battle Reports? |
| Grizwald | 05 Jul 2009 10:55 a.m. PST |
"What is better?" Define how you measure "better". |
| SBminisguy | 05 Jul 2009 11:17 a.m. PST |
Nuts! is a very good system from Two Hour Wargames, it's perfect for platoon-level games. Each player is squad leader and has a core squad, each member of which may have special characteristics like Looter, Marksman, Tough as Nails, etc. Other units are given as reinforcements to your core squad. It's not strict IGO-UGO set of rules. Each side dices for initiative, and can move figures/units based on "reputation" (Morale/training level) level, and then when figures come within sight the can react to each other based upon reaction tests -- open fire, duck for cover, etc. So you never have a situation where one side is moving while the non-moving player's figures just stand around and watch a unit move to its flanks and open fire. Its a great game, and the core system rules are free at their website: twohourwargames.com |
| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 11:42 a.m. PST |
I guess I would define better as something that is quicker play without sacrificing too much in terms of realism. What I like about DH is the vehicle charts realistically display the different vehicle advantages (aka Panthers are far better than Shermans) but all the charts can get a little tedious I think. I hope this helps. |
| Veteran Cosmic Rocker | 05 Jul 2009 11:44 a.m. PST |
There is a very neat campaign option with NUTS! as well – I have just finished running 2 campaigns with my mates. NUTS! games tend to be some of the most enjoyable that my group play. Well worth a look. |
| BrianW | 05 Jul 2009 12:10 p.m. PST |
Yes, NUTS! would be a good rule set for what he is describing also. I do have it as well, and the little mini-campaign system in it is quite nice. The reaction system takes a little bit of work to get used to, but not any worse than the Lardie's card driven systems. Of course, if you like lots of control over your forces, this is the wrong level of game to be playing anyway.  |
| Stuart at Great Escape Games | 05 Jul 2009 1:26 p.m. PST |
leo, RoE ticks all of your boxes and it does indeed play and flow quickly and easily if you want it to. You can also play it cautiously and construct focussed attacks. The good thing is that you'll rarely consult anything chart-like after half a dozen games. The best bit is how troop morale degrades under fire. If you take a number of hits (not necessarily kills) equal to your unit size, the unit is suppressed. If it takes double the number of hits to unit size, the unit is shaken. At the start of your go, all units that have had their morale degraded must either take a test or fall back. Falling back means you make a full move away from enemy and your morale goes up a grade but the unit may do nothing more that turn. If you test and pass, your morale goes up a grade and the unit is free to act. If you fail, it degrades further! So, if a shaken unit fails it becomes demoralised and may be easily destroyed or surrender. This allows you to really plan what your troops might do if they take too much fire, esp. in defence. And it produces really satisfying situations – e.g. your infantry pours very accurate fire into a dug-in enemy mg position and, despite not causing casualties but making it 'shaken', the mg team has little choice but to withdraw. And the discipline tests can be very dramatic! Any more I can help you with, please ask.
Are you UK based, leo? |
| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 1:50 p.m. PST |
Stuart I live in the US. Thanks for the information. |
| Berlichtingen | 05 Jul 2009 1:59 p.m. PST |
The rules that fit your criteria are:
Disposable Heroes
Rules of Engagement
Troops, Weapons & Tactics
Nuts
Force on Force All play fast, all focus on infantry Nuts is great for solo play, but of the 5, its better to have a platoon or less. The others handle a reinforced platoon better. Troops, Weapons & Tactics and Force on Force have the most realistic feel to them, with Force on Force having the more detailed vehicle rules (not complicated, mind). TW&T is a Too Fat Lardies set and it seems you either love their style or hate it. Rules of Engagement has a very Warhammer feel to it. Again, either love or hate Disposable Heroes, I own, but haven't played. I wasn't overly impressed in reading them (just my impression) My personal recommendation is Force on Force. Its quick playing, has slick turn sequence (definitely NOT I go, you go), and would make for a very good military training tool |
| Stuart at Great Escape Games | 05 Jul 2009 4:42 p.m. PST |
Brigade Games link stocks it in the U.S. |
| BrettLongworth | 05 Jul 2009 6:10 p.m. PST |
I've played RoE and Disposable Heroes. Both were fun games in their own right. I've recently purchased Troops, weapon and Tactics. I own Ambush Alley and their follow up game Force on Force looks interesting. RoE is a classic I go you go system and would be easilly accessible by any one who has played a Games Workshop game. I quite like the morale system and the way units can rally automatically if they fall back. This allows for a fluid game of movement. I also like the way better troops are effectivly harder to hit. Different troop types get special abilities that characterise individual forces nicely. The book is hard cover and well produced. For production values it is the best buy of the options mentioned above. In Disposable Heroes you alternate unit actions. This leads to players having to make interesting choices about which unit to activate when and their is less "down time" for individual players. On the down sides, veterans are just as likely to be hit as green troops and the game can be very bloody for attackers. Production values of the game are minimalist but effective. Although I haven't played Troops, Weapons and Tactics yet I have played Sharp Practice, which uses some similar mechanics. It is a card based system, which allows leaders to activate units when their leader card comes up. This allows for a lot of unpredictability, my gaming group likes this. Some groups don't. The stress on leaders (called "Big Men") is interesting and gives a realistic sense of Command and Control. These rules possibly lack the "polish" of the other two mentioned in that not everythingg is clearly defined. I think this partially reflects the Lardies approach to game design, with the focus being on good scenario design and players coming to the game with a sense of fair play. "Rules Lawyers" would be advised to stay away! Hope this helps. I'd gladly play any of the above games. |
| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 6:50 p.m. PST |
Interesting. Yeah DH was really good in terms of detail, but I thought you got kind of bogged down too much, especially when you were talking armor. |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 05 Jul 2009 7:11 p.m. PST |
BFE:WAW is also a good system to consider. |
| CPBelt | 05 Jul 2009 7:28 p.m. PST |
After several games with different opponents, I found DH not to be my thing. Actually found it really boring. Defending Germans are brutal all the time, even in the hands of a total noob who has never played a miniatures game in his life. I know others will disagree, just like some prefer Coke to Pepsi. I own Crossfire and want to give that a try. Looks very intense. Force on Force is on my radar as well. Upside is using it for moderns and near-future as well. |
| leobarron2000 | 05 Jul 2009 7:55 p.m. PST |
What about the game Final Combat…or is that too specific? I have read about it and it seems interesting, but I also seems a little cumbersome. |
| quidveritas | 05 Jul 2009 9:54 p.m. PST |
I think you have identified many issues with DH that are problems save one: The infantry casualty rates are excessive and this in turn nullifies any real 'tactics' that IMO should be present at this level. ROE reminds me of Squad Leader in some respects (basic game play). The combat model is similar to but certainly not the same as FOW with one notable exception. ROE is not an armor game. That said, at Tactical Solutions last year we played a game involving a pair of Tigers and 9 or 11 Russian tanks. The Germans won the game -- not because of the Tigers but because their SS panzer grenadiers proved to be too tough for the Russians to take out despite the huge advantage in tanks. -- ROE is primarily an infantry game and this game brought that home in spades! mjc |
| leobarron2000 | 07 Jul 2009 7:10 p.m. PST |
Hey everyone Thanks for all the input. I think I might buy several of the games posted here and try them all! |
| monongahela | 08 Jul 2009 9:31 a.m. PST |
Face of Battle
Battleground
Final Combat
Nuts! They all offer something unique and intresting in their take on skirmish combat with the ocassional vehicle. The 1st 3 are very detailed games and play quickly once you have learned them, and Nuts! provides faster play with interesting reaction/ morale mechanics to throw a few curves. DH and RoE are both fast play company(?) level games with empahsis on the actions by squad play. I like DH but it is based around the fire-fight and getting fire superiority, movement and tactics are secondary. It does play fast and you can get a bunch of stuff on the table. I found RoE to be the basic IGUG game with overwatch, not inspring enough for me to be bothered playing again. |
| Quadratus | 11 Jul 2009 6:20 a.m. PST |
Disposable Heroes is a really solid and simple system. Armor does have some charts, but I find if I use a sticky note on the right page or reproduce the armor chart that the game goes along pretty quickly. I haven't played a scenario with more than 3-4 different vehicles. Some scenario prep helps keep the armor system moving along at a good pace. The infantry rules are top notch.
Matt
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| Goose666 | 22 Jul 2009 2:35 a.m. PST |
I have to give my vote to RoE. Well for platoon level 1:1 representation and a rule set that allows, real life tactics, flanking, counter-attacks. A good moral system and a flowing rule set, that is not too tricky to learn. |
