Help support TMP


"Grunwald (Tannenberg) 1410 for FoG scenario" Topic


13 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Medieval Discussion Message Board

Back to the Playtest Message Board


1,480 hits since 4 Jul 2009
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

The Membership System will be closing for maintenance in 7 minutes. Please finish anything that will involve the membership system, including membership changes or posting of messages.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 1:12 a.m. PST

THE BATTLE OF TANNENBERG 1410
Later Polish, Later Russians, Lithuanians, and Tartars
vrs.
Teutonic Knights, Crusaders, and Mercenaries.

Maps:
picture

picture

Map legend:

Tan blocks = Villages,
Green Polygons = Forests
Blue Lines = Rivers
Blue Lozenges = Lakes
Brown Lines = Roads
Black Circle w/ white cross = German Camp
Red Circle w/ cross = Polish Camp
Orange Circle w/ Blue cross = Lithuanian/ Allies Camp
Red Line = Polish set up Zone
Orange Line = Lithuanian set up Zone
Dark Grey Line = German Set up Zone
Dark Green Lozenges = Marsh
Brown Lozange with spikes = Level 1 clear gentle hill.

Map Notes:

All rivers are "uneven" per game rules (page 131),
Units in single base columns may gain 1 MU bonus if the BG started its movement on a road section,
All lakes are "Impassable" terrain,
Forests, swamps, and villages are "difficult" terrain,
Each "camp" = a fortified camp.
Town Names are as Follows:
1: Grunwald
2: Tannenberg-Stembark
3: Lodwigowo
4: Logdowo
5: Ulnowo

For a historical summery of the battle, see here:

link

Forces:

Teutonic Knights & Allies (Setup anywhere in the German Zone):

4 Generals (see notes below for quality),
6 (stands of) Brother Spearmen, HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen,
6 Brother Crossbowmen, MF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Crossbow,
3 Mercenary Spearmen, HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen,
3 Mercenary Crossbowmen, MF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Crossbow,
3 Subject Spearmen, MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Defensive Spearmen,
3 Subject Foot Archers, LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow,
3 Town Militia Spearmen, HF, Protected, Poor, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen,
3 Town Militia Crossbowmen, MF, Protected, Poor, Drilled, Crossbow,
4 Handgunners, LF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Firearm,
5 Battlegroups of Light Artillery (2 guns each), Average, Undrilled, Light Artillery,
6 Brother Knights, Knights, HA, Superior, Drilled, Lancer, Swordsmen,
12 Brother Sergeants, Knights, HA, Superior, Drilled, Lancer, Swordsmen,
6 Vassal Knights, Knights, HA, Superior, Undrilled, Lancer, Swordsmen,
12 Mercenary Knights, Knights, HA, Average, Drilled, Lancer, Swordsmen,
24 Mounted Crossbowmen, Cavalry, Protected, Average, Drilled, Crossbow, Swordsmen,
36 Turcopoles, Cavalry, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light spear, Swordsmen,
6 Prussian Scouts, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light spear,

Teutonic army notes:

The Teutonic Forces actually included approximately 200 Hungarian Nobles (Knights) and their followers and 150-200 Swiss "Volunteer" Knights. There were not enough of either group to field as separate Battlegroups however you may wish to make a stand or two of each just to add color to your army.

The German Foot spearmen must be brigaded (same Battlegroup) as the crossbowmen of the same morale, armor, etc… (ie. 3 Brother Spearmen with 3 Brother Crossbowmen, etc…). The Subject Spearmen and Foot Archers are brigaded together as well. The Handgunners are a lone battlegroup and may not be brigaded.

Lithuanians & Allies (Setup anywhere in the Lithuanian Zone):

3 Generals (See below for ratings),
6 Archers, LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow,
6 Nobles, Cavalry, Armored, Superior, Undrilled, Bow*, Light spear, Swordsmen,
30 Retainers, Cavalry, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Bow*, Light spear, Swordsmen,
48 Retainers, LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow, Light spear, Swordsmen

Russians (under Lithuanian Command, setup anywhere in the Lithuanian Zone):

6 Boyars, Cavalry, Armored, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen,

Tartars: (Setup anywhere in the Lithuanian Zone):

1 General (See below for ratings),
4 Nobles & Bodyguards, Cavalry, Armored, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Swordsmen,
12 Followers, LH, Unprotected, Superior, Drilled, Bow, Swordsmen,

Poles & Allies: (Setup anywhere in the Polish Zone):

4 Generals (See below for quality)
2 Battlegroups of Light Artillery (2 guns each), Average, Undrilled, Light Artillery,
6 Town Militia "Axemen", HF, Protected, Avereage, Drilled, Heavy Weapon (Two Handed axe or Halberd)
3 Town Militia "Pavisiers", HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Defensive Spearmen,
3 Town Militia Crossbowmen, MF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Crossbow
4 Handgunners, LF, Unprotected, Average, Drilled, Firearm,
36 Nobles and Retainers, Knights, Heavily Armored, Superior, Undrilled, Lancers, Swordsmen,
36 Strzelcy, Cavalry, Protected, Superior, Undrilled, Crossbow, Swordsmen,
48 Lesser Strzelcy, Cavalry, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Crossbow, Swordsmen,

Polish and Allied Army Notes:

The Polish "Pavisiers" must be brigaded with the crossbowmen. The Polish Nobles must be brigaded with the Strzelcy crossbowmen (3 Nobles with 3 Strzelcy). The Polish Command included 1 Banner of Czech Knights and 1 Banner of Moravian Knights but they are not enough to field separately. The Polish command further fielded an unknown number of Bohemian & Silesian Knights . If you want to, for color, remove 6 stands of Polish Nobles and Strzelcy (3 of each) and replace them with 6 stands of KN, Armored, Average, Drilled, Lancer, Swordsmen to represent the Czech, Moravian, and Bohemian & Silesian Knights present.

The Tarter General represents Jelal-el-Din, the exiled Khan of the Golden Horde. Historically the Polish King surrounded himself with his small contingent of foot as a bodyguard atop of the small hill, but I leave their deployment up to you!

1 Teutonic General should represent the Teutonic Grand Master, and 1 Polish General should represent the Polish King. The death of either would result in a crushing defeat for their army. Otherwise standard army withdrawl/ victory procedures are used. 1 Lithuanian General may also represent the Grand Duke of Lithuania.

All Generals should be rated as "Field Commander". If you wish to add some spice to the game, you may roll for General's quality prior to battle as follows:

6 sided die,
6 = Inspired Commander,
3-5 = Field Commander,
1-2 = Troop Commander.

If a General is killed the army will be short a commander for 1 turn (not including the turn he is killed on!). Then a second in command will take his place. Roll on the chart above to determine the second in commands ability.

All camps are "Fortified" by a wagon lager.


This is obviously a big battle and would lend itself well to a club game. I look forward to seeing your comments, suggestions, and game results! Other battles on the way will include Ankara, Leignitz, and a number of engagements from the War of the Roses. Stay tuned.


Primary sources used:
"Eternal Empire", a Field of Glory Supplement Book,
"Command Magazine" Issue #52, "Grunwald 1410, the First Battle of Tannenburg", (a decent game but does not include any infantry or artillery for either side. Great map is included however!),
"Osprey Military Journal" Vol. 4, Issue I. An Excellent write up of the battle by David Bonk,
"Tannenberg 1410, Disaster for the Teutonic Knights", Osprey Campaign Book #122, by Stephen Turnbull,
"Banderia Apud Grunwald #1" Polish Banners at Grunwald, in Polish by Andrzej Klein,
"Banderia Apud Grunwald #2" Teutonic Banners at Grunwald, in Polish by Andrzej Klein,
Various internet articles.

Any incorrect/ misrepresented information is entirely my own fault!


Danny "Boyo" Riordan

Personal logo Veteran Cosmic Rocker Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 1:35 a.m. PST

That is excellent – thanks for posting. I have just started Warmaster Medieval (although I have the FOG rules as well) so once I have the armies up and running I will give it a go.

Interestingly a couple of weekends ago I was with my usual gaming mates and asked them what period I should get into next…they sited this very battle and I was convinced to try Medieval.

Kev.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 1:40 a.m. PST

Very cool Kev, you are welcome. This is one of my "must game" before I die battles. It shouldn't be too hard to convert to Warmaster I should think. Let me know how the game works out either way.

Cheers.

bigdennis Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 9:57 a.m. PST

An outstanding, well thought out post. Thank you for a very interesting read.

WagesofSin Inactive Member04 Jul 2009 11:31 a.m. PST

I am wondering, are there any credible records of the poles and allies using infrantry and artillery on their side? I remember reading Stephen Turnbulls Osprey book, as well as a book in polish and didn't find either. While the presence of infantry could have been overlooked in historical recounts, I definitely read/heard nothing of the polish side using artillery(though the Teutonic Knights did, of course)

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 11:46 a.m. PST

The most common figures I came across for foot were 2000 on the Polish side and 6,000 on the Teutonic side. There are 2 historical passages that refer to Teutonic knights getting close to the Polish King before they were unhorsed and hacked to death by "footmen".

Its not surprising to me that with cavalry playing the overwhelming role it did in this battle that foot are often not given their due.

As for the Polish Artillery, that is more a supposition on my part, I believe any large Polish Army by this time would have had some light artillery with it (though not on the scale of the Teutonic Gun Park).

Re-enactments at Grunwald each year (while not strictly historically accurate!) feature very light guns used on the Polish side.

As the Poles ultimate goal of this campaign was the capture of the Fortress of Marienburg, the Teutonic orders HQ, I believe thats another solid indication that some arty would have been present. It is possible that due to the swampy ground that the Poles camped on that any arty they had was left with the wagon laggered camp (after all, there was a future famous Hussite present at the battle on the Polish side ;-)

Anyone who disagrees with this obviously welcome to remove either the Polish Arty or Foot (or both) as neither are likely to sway the outcome of the battle by themselves.

WagesofSin Inactive Member04 Jul 2009 11:53 a.m. PST

Alright, interesting. Not knocking your idea, just wondering where you are getting your info. I should clarify, too, that I'm not questioning infantry on the Teutonic side, just on the Polish side.

Overall, would be great to game! :D

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 11:55 a.m. PST

As an afterthought, I was asked in another forum what size table is suggested for this battle. I am going try to get this battle done in 28mm on an 8x4 table though I would prefer a 9x5 if I had it. 6x4 should suffice for 15mm minis.

Good gaming to you and Happy 4th!

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2009 12:12 p.m. PST

No problem Wages, I welcome all inquiries! If you look at the Wikipedia article (yes…I know!) it actually has a decent page on the battle and it lists different historians' (by name) estimates of the troops present.

I should note that this is only the second historical scenario I have done for FoG (Ain-Jalut was first, TMP link ).

Posting anything you have written for consumption in this Forum can be intimidating to say the least.

I am a full time worker and only a part-time amateur historian. While I have a decent book collection, and there is always the internet, at my level of research there is only a certain level of historical "accuracy" you can achieve when it comes to creating Medieval Battle scenarios. There is always going to be a bit of assumption or down right "guess work" to finish the scenario (particularly so in the case of maps!).

Then there is playablity factor and the need to conform the battle to the set of rules you are using. In the end you make the best effort you can and hope people enjoy the results. I figure a playable somewhat historical scenario with some guesswork is better than one that never gets posted!

Anyway, I'm not thin skinned so by all means I enjoy being corrected on any errors as it makes for a better game in the end.

As mentioned in my first post, I took a vote on the FoG (Slitherine) web page for Medieval Battles people were interested in seeing made for FoG. Though only a few votes came in, Grunwald, Ankara 1402, Leignitz 1242, Barnet and Tewkesbury were the most requested. My wife is in the Middle East for 6 weeks so I shall have plenty of time to work on these. Hopefully, I should have another battle up in a week or so. Cheers.

Matheo06 Jul 2009 5:59 p.m. PST

Great post. That inspired me to prepare big game for next year's 600th anniversary of Grunwald battle, though I'll be using Warmaster rules (as I have them and like them). As noone in my group have necessary armies, I'll have to build and paint them myself ;)

Wish you good luck with Leignitz scenario though. Very little is known for sure about this engagement. Some time ago a book on Leignitz came out, which is in fact an in-depth study of all the sources available, and well… one may even conclude that there was no battle as we know it (though it is really far-fetched conclusion).

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2009 7:37 p.m. PST

"That inspired me to prepare big game for next year's 600th anniversary of Grunwald battle"

Outstanding! I'm hoping to have them done by next summer though I havent even decided on a scale yet. Going back n forth between 15 and 25mm! If more 25/28mm medieval plastics were out that would help my decision!

"As no one in my group have necessary armies, I'll have to build and paint them myself"

I'm doing the same.

"Very little is known for sure about this engagement"

Very true! So I expect to get very little negative feedback when I post it ;-)

Thanks for the comments and good luck w/ your armies Matheo. Please post some pictures when you have some done!

Cheers.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP24 Jul 2009 3:28 a.m. PST

Just a reminder, if anyone gets a chance to playtest this please leave an after action report if you find the time.

Thanks!

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP03 May 2010 4:40 p.m. PST

Anyone ever get to test the scenario?

Sorry - only trusted members can post on the forums.